Brave words, monstro. Do you really not worry about looking good? When I was working, I sure worried about how I looked to Gentiles, especially in situations where I was the only Jew.
I don’t care about impressing white people, december. I would like to think that my behavior does not dramatically improve when I’m in front of them when compared to black people, and I don’t think it does.
That isn’t to say that I don’t feel self-conscious around them sometimes, especially when I’m being evaluated. And a lot of times I do worry that people will let their prejudgements of me cloud how they see me. I work harder than my peers because I don’t want anyone to be able to find a reason not to like me, but I don’t know if this is a product of me being in an all-white environment or me being a neurotic perfectionist. But as far as purposefully presenting myself to look good in front of white people? No. Doing this would mean that I believe white people are better than me, or that their opinions about me are more important than my feelings about myself.
I could be 100% perfect and that wouldn’t change a bigot’s feelings about black people one bit. Their logic always allows for “exceptions” (e.g., Halle Berry is FINE but she’s not really black. Michael Jordan is AWESOME but he’s not like “the rest of them”).
Munster:
Maybe the next time American blacks hold their annual meeting, you can ask them to put that on the agenda-- change your image.
Realistically, though, I can think of only one stereotype that I’ve seen changed in the last 40-odd years, and I’m not really even sure it qualifies as a sterotype. And that is the old “Made in Japan = cheap junk” to “Made in Japan = Best Quality in the World”.
Stereotypes die hard, if they die at all. We as a society need to look at people as individuals instead of as a member of some arbirtrary group. Whatever we do to institutionalize the treatment of people as part of a group instead of simply as individuals will work against the elimination of stereotyping.
That’s right. A good offense is the best defense, eh, pizzabrat?
…o…kay. How about actually saying something?
I would say the stereotype of Asian-Americans has changed dramatically in this country. Fifty years ago, the image of Japanese-Americans were gardeners and houseboys; the image of Chinese-Americans was laundries and cheap restaurants.
It’s true, as the OP says, that they were regarded as “hard-working and ‘quiet’,” though they were not regarded as “assimilatng.” However, my point is, were not yet regarded as academically superior.
December:
Interesting point. I atually thought about that before my last post, but I opted to leave it alone. It seems like the Chinese have always been thought of as “inscrutible” or “tricky” which isn’t exactly flattering, but at least implies a recognition of intelligence. You could be right, but I think if there has been a change, it’s rather subtle.
I have to admit that dissecting these stereotypes and thinking about how they’ve changed over time is very distasteful…
An interesting point was brought up in one of the Newspapers I read in the last week or so. As we’ve all said on this thread, the term “Asian” ir riduculously broad-- esp if it includes Indians and Pakastanis, etc. But even in the “far east” the various cultures are extremely different. In particular, the Fiilipino community kind of gets the shaft from being lumped in with Chinese/Japanes/Koreans. Filipinos are either the largest or second largest group of Asians in the US, but do not have anywhere near the economic success of, say, Chinese or Japanese. Again, it just reinforces the need to focus on individuals and their circumstances rather than making such a big deal about their so-called group identity.
>Again, it just reinforces the need to focus on individuals and
>their circumstances rather than making such a big deal about
>their so-called group identity.
Admirable. However, it is easier (not necessarily right, just easier) to focus on easy-to-define categories, hence stereotypes.
I thought it was necessary to resurrect this because I missed it the first time around and I didn’t feel like making an identical thread. I spent some time reading through the posts and thought some points were well defined but others obviously came from people who had no clue what they were talking about. I think the main problem with the points addressed is that many have no life experiences to actually relate to it.
A lot of the white point of views come from 2nd-3rd hand observations. You have no idea what goes on in the life of an average Asian-american. I think the only people that come close to pegging the daily experience are African-americans who can relate through their own trials and tribulations. Even with asians there’s a wildly divergent set of stereotypes attached to specific gender that’s unlike other ethnicities. There seems to be invisible politics involving white society to split asians up through gender differentiated racial discrimination. For instance asian women will be “adopted” by white society as wallflowers and trend setters. Whereas asian men will be demonized as foreigners and intellectual worker ants. This is used to create a monolithic cultural wall of divisiness in the asian community. Many savvy new generation asian born kids recognize this lie growing up and have learned to fight it. As a result some asians have chosen to self segregate themselves from what they see as white racist social engineering of asians.
Whites effectively destroyed the african-americans early in the history of the U.S. by dismantling their identity in similar ways. They turned the black man on each other by having one gain the master’s favor while the other worked the cotton field. Whites are doing the same thing with asians in this era of noveau racism except it’s split along gender lines. The model minority myth only serves as a catalyst to stigmatize asians in a certain manner to make this division more practical. Asians are discouraged from making decisions for themselves in society. Instead we are placed in specific categories of “technical” expertise to define what we can do in life. Fields like politics and business which have considerable amounts of power brokering are discouraged by whites when it comes to asian participation. Glass ceilings and stereotypes are there to prevent asians from achieving too much.
Matter of fact there’s a fairly prevelant attitude here by the white majority that asians are here to assist the white nation with its engineering, science, and computer technology but aren’t allowed to integrate socially. It’s just another negro in a cotton field except this time the negro is an asian and the cotton field is a science lab churning out projects for the massah’. How many of those same projects that asians worked on ended up as western hegemonist bombs dropping on foreign cities? What about asian assisted science research into germ warfare or biochemcial warfare? Who is to say that the U.S. won’t be using that on ASIAN nations next?
I happen to think the success has more to do with a successful attitude than race, at least in recent times.
Winners who set goals and strive to overcome obstacles tend to succeed in life, regardless of racial stereotypes.
Had me going there for a second, I thought you were actually posting something intelligent and devoid of racism for a change.
Who is to say that North Korea won’t be using their new long-range ICBM to attack the Pacific coast?
Feisty:
I really want to respond to your post, but I’m late for the meeting of Dastardly White Males. The subcommittee on “How to Keep Asians Seperated by Gender” is hosting tonight’s main discussion topic. It’s been difficult keeping our work secret, and I can see that you are now onto us. We’ll have to come up with some new tactics, but at least you’ve given me some good ideas!
Warning: may contain ramblings of a more personal nature. Please bear with me (or go away).
When reading your post, Feistymongol, I started with agreeing but in the end, if I may say so, you appear to over-generalize somewhat. I’m guessing (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that you are an Asian-American yourself. Although I live in the Netherlands, where certain American cultural phenomena such as the PC movement have never taken off in the same manner as in the U.S., from what I’ve read in this thread and in the media there are broad similarities with the European ‘situation’. In case you (or others) wonder, I am of Chinese origin, quite visibly so, but was raised in a completely Dutch manner by my Chinese parents.
When I was younger I have (as you obviously have) spent quite some time thinking about the way Asian stereotypes in Western society worked. I actually came up with a description of the existing stereotypes quite like yours. One of the annoying things was that I happened to fit the stereotype rather well: doing well at school (and university), particularly in math. Given that these musings were part of my adolescent-coming-of-age existentialist period, this led to questioning whether my vocation and identity were in fact my own or just the passive obeisance of societal pressures. I will not bore you with all the details; I was sufficiently level-headed not to drop out of university, and stubborn enough to try to explore other aspects of myself that had, in my opinion, not developed sufficiently, in the end leading me in a direction quite remote from my original studies. (It was only much later that I discovered J.S. Mill’s autobiographic discovery of the unsatisfactory bleakness of the Utilitarianism in which his father and Bentham had raised him.)
With regard to the stereotypes you depict, you should realise that they are just that: stereotypes. They are not a universal presence in everyone’s mind, completely determining their thoughts. Indeed, I believe that is not what you actually wanted to say, much less that there is a conspiracy of white men. Although I must insofar agree with John Mace that the tone of your post at times seems to imply something like that: I guess it is the way in which you speak of whites as if it is a well-defined consciously acting collective. On the other hand, being stereotypes, it is almost unavoidable that everyone you meet has been exposed to them in some way or another, with varying results. In my experience over here I find that older people (50+) tend to find it harder to look past my Asian exterior (asking me questions about famous Asian people as if I’m naturally disposed to know everything about them), while younger people are on the whole more sensitive and only broach the subject of my ‘etnic’ origin after carefully testing the waters. The downside of that is that people like to say that they consider me being completely Dutch (which I’m clearly not by physical appearance): I’ve wondered whether they would compliment a woman in a man’s world by calling her an honorary man?
The thing is, although all of us (yes, even I 
) are tinged with stereotypes and prejudices. Luckily these days people are more aware of it and tend to give you a bit more slack in proving these stereotypes wrong. You still have to fight an uphill battle, but you are allowed your chance to play. I do not like it a bit more than you do, especially knowing that other people (‘white men’ if I may use another stereotype), do not have that specific problem. But bear in mind that they have never asked for their specific favors: blaming them as a group is not appropriate; it is the (unjust) way that society works.
Yes, life sucks. Now enjoy it. Think about it: most individuals are in one way or another at a disadvantage over others. No-one ever gets a choice over their talents or looks: this is just how the dice have rolled for you. What you do with it is up to you and for that you are responsible, but that certain characteristics of your persona cannot be changed (race, intelligence, talents, looks) means that you may have to work harder than some people with different characteristics (such as different race). Bad luck for you, but on the other hand bad luck for the guy who has less talent than you and may wish he could trade you for it. If you haven’t yet read any feminist literature you may actually find it enlightening for certain similarities in which prejudices work against women, and for the debate on whether egality is necessary or difference (just giving some pointers, sorry to sound presumptuous: for all I know you may be a woman and well-versed in this subject). The idea that the end result of your life is completely up to you is a bunch of c***: once you get past that piece of ideology, you may get more pleasure out of finding how much is in fact possible with work. By the way, I do agree that specific minorities have their own specific problems and stereotypes, that justifies tackling it as a separate problem. In the end, however, the general mechanism is ineradicable. Its nasty effects may be minimized: I guess that is the project of battling the world’s ignorance where we at SMDB have signed up for.
More to the point of your original post: the stereotypes you listed do exist and they will not quickly go away. On the other hand, as I’m sure you’ve read in the previous posts, stereotypes are open to change. It is up to members of specific minorities to do that. For this too, you cannot completely choose your own identity but you may be able to show the stereotypes wrong and thereby modifying the stereotype. (though I hope in a good way ). Society does not force you into the slot that is ready for you: it may exert some pressure, but other options can be opened if you try hard enough. That goes whether you are a man or a woman (ask my sister!).
For those others who are reading: I’m not suggesting that society is a malvolent collective for the oppression of minorities, governed in secret meetings by Bad White Males. ‘Society’ is just short-hand for the collection of behaviour and thoughts that exist within the group of interacting human beings (in particular within a specific nation-state), as well as for the collection of these individuals themselves. There may be patterns in this behaviour that appear involuntarily, even against the specific wishes of most of the members of society. Such patterns (like stereotypes) then do exist in society, even though there is no-one to blame.
Currently there are clear signs that older stereotypes are changing: at least in Europe you can see members from minorities getting into societal positions where they formerly were not present. I am not only talking of academia, but also television, acting, sports, government. Granted, the presence may not yet be proportionate and the specific positions may still be partly determined according to stereotypes. Most Asian American actors either portray humorous characters or martial arts specialists. It would be nice to regularly see an Asian Amerian in a dramatic role (in particular as the main character in a major movie), or even as a normal-but-just-happens-to-be-Asian guy or girl in a sitcom, but am aware that this would go against the grain of normal audience expectations (including my own, I’m ashamed to admit). However, you should not ask too much too quickly (and I’m not sure up to where demographics would justify an increase in minority presence).
The only downside of living in these interesting times is (at least in Europe) a distinctively more outspoken aversion to non-white people in society. This is fueled by mass migration, fear of rising crime rates, and (nowadays) by global politics. I’m afraid this is one of the bad things where there is nothing you can do but pray and hope nothing too bad is going to happen. I shudder at the thought of an Asian nation someday becoming a menace to the Western world. North Korea is a case in point: I’m afraid we cannot avoid more simple-minded persons taking out their anger on the first Asian-looking person they meet (Jeff Olsen, I’m sure you didn’t mean your post that way, but the response is indicative of feelings that do exist in society). The cross all minorities have to bear is that they will be held responsible for all the bad things any individual of their group does, while the positive things a minority member does are attributed to the whole of society. You know the Einstein joke about whether relativity theory is right or wrong?
In short, there is reason to be a bit optimistic: most people you meet will not continually hold you to specific stereotypes. If your environment is dominated by unenlightened people I can only urge you to try to search for another environment to live or work in; if that won’t do I’m afraid I’m out of advice as well and can only express my sympathies. In my experience though you should not go too much on appearances. Many uneducated persons are surprisingly open-minded and friendly to people with different skin color, while some educated persons may on the other hand have deep-seated prejudices which they only are able to hide due to better education. The problem with discussing this subject with ‘white’ people is that they tend to consider every critique of societal stereotypes as an allegation that they themselves hold that particular prejudice. The fact that they do not believe or act on that stereotype, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Nor does it mean that you shouldn’t be allowed to discuss the existence of prejudices in the minds of other ‘white’ people, who, it so happens, are never in the present company. Truth is that you can probably only discuss this subject without such misunderstandings in the presence of non-white people. I guess it is the same with women, who discuss women’s problems preferably outside the company of men, in order to prevent having to explain all sorts of stuff.
Well, for those of you who aren’t Feistymongol, I hope that you understand that I wasn’t speaking of the SMDB community just now. No, really. On the whole I’m pleasantly surprised with the level of moderation and intelligence displayed by this community. And let’s not forget humor! However, I felt that it was necessary to give a bit more personal communication, including an aside of one ‘Asian’ to another. To summarise my position (this goes for any stereotype, not just Asian):
[ul]
[li]stereotypes do exist but are not an intentional plot of majoritarian society,[/li][li]that stereotypes exist in society and that some people are prejudiced or even racist, does not imply that everyone is prejudiced or racist,[/li][li]stereotypes may be changed slowly and do not absolutely determine who you are or can become, although they may make it harder for you,[/li][li]life is not fair.[/li][/ul]
Pity though, that last one. And no, I consider myself an optimist since I believe despite an uneridicable layer of unfairness, life on the whole can be pretty nice. 
I’m not claiming any of the above is original. Just stating it in this way for clarity’s sake.
For another clarification: I do not actually consider myself to be an ‘Asian’ in the sense of strongly identifying myself in that way. Heck, I do not even speak Chinese (oops, does that invalidate all the above?). However, given the way I look and given the background of my family I cannot avoid being attributed membership of the Asian minority. As was remarked by ** pizzabrat**, minority groups are no monoliths. And Monstro, I agree with most of what you said, at least in spirit. Sorry to see that even within SMDB you still have to explain the most elementary things to avoid being misunderstood.
And please, no nitpicking on spelling or grammatical errors in this post. I’m aware that my English, being my second language, is not fully up to that of native speakers, but I do know that it is far from warranting the flames that some of the more atrocious posts receive. Constructive material criticism is welcome, but nitpicking only distracts from the content of this thread. You are, however welcome to tear apart any other posts of me elsewhere