Moderation gone mad: Miller

[Tibby]

@Miller

<snip>

Tibby, I do think you’re lying when you describe your intentions behind your posts. In fact, up until about post 71 in this thread, I’d mostly written you off as a troll. When you get a warning, and your response is a couple paragraphs about your cock, that doesn’t signal to me that you’re a poster who’s particularly concerned with his reputation on the board, or moderator actions taken against him. Your posts since then have swung me away from “troll” and back towards “colossally tone deaf,” but I’m still about 50/50 on the subject.

So, now I’m a liar and a troll? Considering my posting history for the past 10 years, I believe that says more about you than about me.

And, yes, I continued to make jokes in that thread after I got the warning. I didn’t agree with the warning, but I didn’t care to defend myself there (I didn’t care about defending it here, either, until my integrity was attacked). So, what, you expected me to grovel, plead and apologize for something, I know in my mind, I didn’t do? I didn’t do that there and I’m not going to do it here.

As a reference point, I was, in real life, accused of a crime I didn’t commit 15 years ago. The investigation went on for 3 years. I lost almost everything I owned to legal fees and the loss of my practice. I was quite literally bullied by the federal government into accepting a plea bargain. My attorneys wanted me to take it to trial, but by that point, I couldn’t afford the additional ~$300k needed to prepare for trial. The agreement was sent to my attorneys and I was getting all my financial files ready to submit. Then my lead attorney said, “you know, you’re going to have to stand before the court and admit that you committed the crime.” I told him I couldn’t do that and looked into mortgaging my house to go to trial (luckily, I was offered a proffer of sorts after that by the AUSA and all charges were dropped shortly after. This is a condensed telling, but it addresses the main points). So, no, I chose not to lie then to save myself from potentially going to prison, I’m not about to start lying now to save myself from getting an internet warning.

@Miller

As far as the rule about threatening other posters go, the standard has never been, “Is it realistic?” The rule, as written, also prohibits things like, “I hope you get cancer,” which isn’t really something you can even inflict on another person. I generally do not moderate “threats” that are clearly absurd - there was one post in that thread that was something like, “Quarries throw stones at Bo,” that I didn’t specifically moderate for that reason. Of course, the standard for “absurd” is, itself, pretty squidgy, but cutting off people’s heads is a thing that actually happens. While it may be absurd to take that as a literal threat from Tibby, the action itself is not absurd.

And throwing stones is a thing that actually happens, and plenty of people have been stoned to death. A quarry throwing stones (maybe there’s someone in the quarry doing the throwing) is no more absurd than the thought of me lopping someone’s head off. Neither scenario is realistic and both can invoke violent imagery. Seems like a double standard to me.

@Miller

“Joke” threats I sometimes let slide, but only if its occurring between two people who are both clearly on the same page, or in the context of a non-acrimonious discussion. Saying, “Get a rope!” after a particularly bad pun, for example, is probably not going to get moderated. A joke threat that’s made between two posters who are already at loggerheads, on the other hand, is probably going to be handled differently.

What makes you think Bo and I were at loggerheads? Why don’t you ask Bo if we were at loggerheads? I mean, it seems to me like everyone’s trying to get inside my head and say what I was thinking when I made my posts; you’re trying to get inside DSeids head and explain who he was (apparently subconsciously) referring to with Person B; and you’re trying to get inside Bo’s head and explain why he should feel threatened and at loggerheads with me. Just ask him. Simple.

This thread has grown wearisome and it feels more vitriolic than the actual Pit. Again, as DSeid alluded to, notes and warnings are small potatoes and I’m not going to fret about getting one of both. I didn’t fight them in the Pit thread and didn’t start fighting them here until I was not so subtly, and in Miller’s case, blatantly accused of being a liar (not to mention “playing stupid” by Frank). Note that I didn’t start this thread (DSeid did, and I commend him for championing people he feels have been dealt an injustice). I was just going to let it slide.

You can think I’m a liar and a troll all you want. But, to post those accusations against me on the internet with as little “proof” as you think you have is petty and vindictive.

I wouldn’t give back my warning now even if it was offered (you’ll have to pry it from…). I’m keeping it to remind me not to post in the Pit again. Apparently, I’m too violent for that place.

[Miller]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

So, now I’m a liar and a troll? Considering my posting history for the past 10 years, I believe that says more about you than about me.

So, here’s the thing. I have no idea who you are. I only vaguely recognized your screen name. I checked to see if you had any previous warnings, but I’m not going to go combing through ten years of your posts just to figure out if you’re a nice guy or not. It wouldn’t really prove anything, any way, since you’d hardly be the first relatively normal long-time poster we’ve had to just suddenly decide, “Fuck it, I’m burning this place down.”

And, yes, I continued to make jokes in that thread after I got the warning. I didn’t agree with the warning, but I didn’t care to defend myself there (I didn’t care about defending it here, either, until my integrity was attacked). So, what, you expected me to grovel, plead and apologize for something, I know in my mind, I didn’t do? I didn’t do that there and I’m not going to do it here.

It was more what you posted in this thread, really, but no, I don’t expect you to grovel. I’d have liked some indication that you cared, on some minimal level, about the rules here, and your standing in relation to them. Instead I got jokes about cock puppets.

What makes you think Bo and I were at loggerheads? Why don’t you ask Bo if we were at loggerheads? I mean, it seems to me like everyone’s trying to get inside my head and say what I was thinking when I made my posts; you’re trying to get inside DSeids head and explain who he was (apparently subconsciously) referring to with Person B; and you’re trying to get inside Bo’s head and explain why he should feel threatened and at loggerheads with me. Just ask him. Simple.

I don’t need to ask Bo, nor do I need to read his mind, and saying more than that would be revealing the content of communications that should properly remain private.

You can think I’m a liar and a troll all you want. But, to post those accusations against me on the internet with as little “proof” as you think you have is petty and vindictive.

I didn’t do it to be petty or vindictive. I did it to explain why I’m not rescinding your warning despite your explanations of what you “really” meant: I don’t find your explanations convincing, and I find your overall attitude to be that of someone who is not invested in following the rules of the board. I hadn’t intended to bring up either, and if you hadn’t continued to post defenses of your actions in the Pit thread, I would not have. So I ended up in a position of either appearing to ignore your complaints, or answering them plainly, and insulting you by describing the extremely poor impression you’ve left me with.

Possibly I didn’t make the best choice, there. I don’t know. Too late to take it back now, at any rate.

[Northern_Piper]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

You probably didn’t find it funny, but I did, and I was hoping others would find it funny, too.

So far, I’ve not found anything that you’ve said to be funny.

[BigT]

Guys, it’s common sense. You don’t crack jokes when you are in trouble and trying to get out of it. It comes off as flippant. It will make those you are appealing to think you don’t really care. Notice how that’s exactly what happened?

Of course the people in charge are going to take things seriously. That’s their job. You don’t give out a Warning if you aren’t taking things seriously. So, obviously, you need to take it seriously, too, if you want them to listen to you.

And, Tibby, let me share something–what happened with my first warning. I was making a rhetorical point that got misinterpreted by the mods as threatening a Doper’s children. I talked IN PRIVATE about it with the mods. I pointed out that the other guy knew what I meant. It didn’t matter. I was told that I needed to be more careful and pay attention to what I meant. Marley admitted he could see my point of view, but that the Warning should stand–as a Warning to pay more attention.

I can’t help but think we have the same situation here. It doesn’t matter what you meant. What matters is what you said. And it is perfectly reasonable to read what happened as threat on Bo. The mods don’t have to figure out whether you really meant it that way.

They could have maybe rescinded the Warning if you’d asked nicely. But you instead implied they were stupid for not seeing that you obviously didn’t mean it that way. I get it–you don’t get in trouble a lot, so you don’t know the best way to react. It makes you angry. I’m the same way.

I think that first Warning was the one and only time I responded the right way to a Warning.

[jimbuff314]

Would I get a wARNING for threatening violence on myself? Just curious, for some reason.

[bucketybuck]

My humble opinion is that the warning was a load of old bullshit, to the point of being laughable. None of the tortured justifications or wagon circling in this thread have made me reconsider that opinion.

I’ve also seen it mentioned that there were loads of mod notes already in that thread and so people shouldn’t have been pushing their luck. Frankly there was no need for most of that mod attention in the first place, the thread was tame as fuck and certainly wasn’t full of “violent imagery” about the poster in question.

A crap warning, nicely backed up by getting accused of being a liar and a troll. Sucks to be you Tibby.

[kayaker]

@BigT

I was making a rhetorical point that got misinterpreted by the mods as threatening a Doper’s children.

Misinterpreted?

My kids were relocated out of state and to this day I have zero contact with them, lest you use me to deduce their location.

[Zuzu_s_Petals]

Tibby, if it makes any difference to you, your posts in this thread and your response to the warning in the Pit thread have really made me laugh. I think you seem like a cool guy, and you’ve brightened my day a bit. So thanks.

(And I think the warning was highly silly. But I somehow think you’ll survive it.)

[Emiliana]

@kayaker

Misinterpreted?

My kids were relocated out of state and to this day I have zero contact with them, lest you use me to deduce their location.

I decided not to have children for this very reason.

[DSeid]

@Northern_Piper

So far, I’ve not found anything that you’ve said to be funny.

No explaining why some things tickle some of us and not others.

@BigT

Guys, it’s common sense. You don’t crack jokes when you are in trouble and trying to get out of it. …

… I think that first Warning was the one and only time I responded the right way to a Warning.

You see I don’t think that Tibby perceives one warning over multiple years as “trouble.” Nor should he. Someone getting multiple warnings frequently may be at different place.

@jimbuff314

Would I get a wARNING for threatening violence on myself? Just curious, for some reason.

Why do the words “Blazing Saddles” come into my head?
Hey, I acknowledge that moderation is something some do out of the goodness of their hearts for the benefit of all of us who want this place to remain more wheat than chaff. Most often I think they get it right and when I hear the explanations for bits that I do not get I can usually appreciate the logic. (Again, I get why SB’s tic is not declared as across the line while green font is, for example.)

This Miller moderation may be a mite meshuganah, a miss and amiss (going for a different alliteration than than madness … work with me here!) but (s)he does his/her best. I still appreciate what they do and understand that few decisions will be viewed as correct by all of us.

[jimbuff314]

Miller’s a guy. I +1 your last sentence extremely so.

“… he did his mi-i-i-ighty-y-y de-e-e-e-eds!”

[Tibby]

@Zuzu_s_Petals

Tibby, if it makes any difference to you, your posts in this thread and your response to the warning in the Pit thread have really made me laugh. I think you seem like a cool guy, and you’ve brightened my day a bit. So thanks.

(And I think the warning was highly silly. But I somehow think you’ll survive it.)

It does make a difference to me. Thanks.

And, yes, I’ll survive it. This is by far the least of my worries right now.

[Tibby]

@Miller

So, here’s the thing. I have no idea who you are. I only vaguely recognized your screen name. I checked to see if you had any previous warnings, but I’m not going to go combing through ten years of your posts just to figure out if you’re a nice guy or not. It wouldn’t really prove anything, any way, since you’d hardly be the first relatively normal long-time poster we’ve had to just suddenly decide, “Fuck it, I’m burning this place down.”

I’m surprised you have no idea who I am. We’ve addressed each other’s posts in previous threads, typically on opposite sides of the issues (the last that I recall being the “walking a woman on a leash in the mall” thread; I was against that). I also IM’ed you about removing the post/thread where someone posted the real name of my daughter (while I was going through an acrimonious custody battle). I didn’t appreciate the firm lecture you gave me (I don’t think I should have reasonably been expected to anticipate that someone could or would find and post personal information), but you ultimately did the right thing by removing the thread from view, and I thanked you for that.

And, no I didn’t expect you to comb through 10 years of my posts in order to see if I was worthy of a warning. But, the warning is not my concern; it’s the not so subtle accusations (not just by you) of being a liar and then, in post 112, you blatantly accused me of being a liar and a troll. Before posting that, I think at least a cursory scan of my history was in order.

@Miller

It was more what you posted in this thread, really, but no, I don’t expect you to grovel. I’d have liked some indication that you cared, on some minimal level, about the rules here, and your standing in relation to them. Instead I got jokes about cock puppets.

I think my prior history of no warnings and one note attest to my compliance and caring about the SDMB rules.

@Miller

I don’t need to ask Bo, nor do I need to read his mind, and saying more than that would be revealing the content of communications that should properly remain private.

Again, I think asking Bo would have at least partially vindicated the assumption of my being a liar or a troll.

@Miller

I didn’t do it to be petty or vindictive. I did it to explain why I’m not rescinding your warning despite your explanations of what you “really” meant: I don’t find your explanations convincing, and I find your overall attitude to be that of someone who is not invested in following the rules of the board. I hadn’t intended to bring up either, and if you hadn’t continued to post defenses of your actions in the Pit thread, I would not have. So I ended up in a position of either appearing to ignore your complaints, or answering them plainly, and insulting you by describing the extremely poor impression you’ve left me with.
Possibly I didn’t make the best choice, there. I don’t know. Too late to take it back now, at any rate.

Not to beat a dead horse, but doesn’t a moderator calling a member a liar and a troll with no firm evidence go beyond normal SDMB moderator insults?

I appreciate the stress you’re under as a moderator, but I can guarantee you have nowhere near the stress I’m currently under IRL. I don’t let that stress undermine my civility online, however.

I’ve got nothing else to say about this matter and I don’t think anyone else wants to hear me drone on further. At least I made Zuzu’s Petal’s laugh.

[Miller]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

Not to beat a dead horse, but doesn’t a moderator calling a member a liar and a troll with no firm evidence go beyond normal SDMB moderator insults?

I’m just going to address this part: determining if a poster is a troll, or if they’re being honest when they protest a warning, is part of my job description as a moderator. And it’s something for which “firm evidence” almost never exists. While being called a troll or a liar can certainly be insulting, I didn’t post that for the purpose of insulting you. I posted it to explain why I’m moderating your posts the way I am.

[Joey_P]

@Miller

Possibly I didn’t make the best choice, there. I don’t know. Too late to take it back now, at any rate.

ISTM that after a remark like this, even if Miller wants to change his mind he’s not going to. Classy.

[Miller]

@Joey_P

ISTM that after a remark like this, even if Miller wants to change his mind he’s not going to. Classy.

That was in reference to deciding to post my reasoning for the warning, not to the warning itself.

[Frank]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

But, the warning is not my concern; …

Evidence suggests otherwise.

[Frank]

Never mind; Miller said what I did, only more politely.

[Tibby]

@Frank

Evidence suggests otherwise.

And, what *“evidence” *is that Frank? I didn’t get serious about this whole thing until my integrity came into question. As DSeid said more than once, a warning is of little concern to me and he’s right—I only have one, and I’m not a troublemaker inclined to get enough to get banned (however many that is; I assume more than 1). I know you used to be a moderator, but now you’re just trying to be a [fill in the blank with something that won’t get me in trouble]. I find it somewhat funny, but mostly troubling that you and others think you have a better grasp on my thinking than I have.

[Frank]

@Tibby or Not Tibby

And, what *“evidence” *is that Frank?

Well, you know, you keep arguing about it.