Sister Coyote, were I you, I’d go into the discussion with your mother planning to ask her several questions.
Has Gramma ever apologized for the shit you listed in the OP?
When was the last time she and Gramma spent an afternoon together? Then have her describe how much “fun” it was. If Gramma is as poisonous as you’re implying I doubt your mother has had an afternoon with her mother in years without leaving with her stress levels up, her self-esteem battered, and probably biting back tears or angry words.
Then ask her why she believes she can live with this person?
One of the key points for any of rescue work is for the would-be rescuer to make sure that he or she can act without becoming part of the casualty. Unless your mother is 100% sure that she can deal with someone who’s going to be using what sounds like emotional blackmail and abuse to control her, this scenario is giving me the heebie-jeebies.
If I were you, I’d do a little research before talking to your mom, though. Find the names of a couple assisted living facilities near where your grandmother is, now. Find which ones are recommended, and suggest that your mother try to point your grandmother to one of those. Offer to help her inform Gramma that she’s not welcome to live in your mother’s house, but that she’ll help her find a new place to live.
It sounds like CoyoteMom really needs to look into getting therapy for herself. If she is capable of such all-encompassing rationalizing, it is quite likely she deludes herself in other important areas of her life as well.
In order to live with a toxic mom, you learn to, have to, in order to survive:
…mimimize the hell she gives you. “Oh, that wacky mom!” “She doesn’t mean it.” “Huh? What hell?”.
…maximise your own perceived ability to deal with said hell. “I’m strong” “I like wacky people; at least, they are colorful, honest and, hey, not boring!” .
…maximise your own duty, your feeling of obligation, your nobility in putting up with said hell. “I’m the one in this family who can best deal with her.” “Family is family.” “I can’t cut her loose. She’ll just deteriorate, burning bridges left and right, and sooner of later I will have to clean up her mess anyway. Best I keep the mess from spiralling out of control, and best to keep mom close by so cleaning up becomes easier.”
Dealing with a toxic mom becomes habit. Habits are hard to break. But your mom will have to break that habit. Only thing that habit does is making her seek out other toxic people/situations (spammers?) to repeat a comforatable pattern with. It also affects her ability to see nice, decent people (such as your dad) for what they are.
And yes, my mom has also accused me to be the cause of a friend’s suicide. Said friend was in “hypno-therapy” with her at the time.
I think I’d make frequent use of the phrase “You have four other siblings” when discussing this with your mother. You might also want to ask her why your grandmother doesn’t have anywhere else to go. Now, I admit I’ve read quite a few stories where a parent makes excuses for why the golden child or children can’t take her in while she moves in with another one of her children, but you’re dealing with your mother, not your grandmother. I can see why your grandmother may not want to live with the daughter you mentioned in your second footnote, but there are two kids who have room to take her in.
Your mother doesn’t owe her mother this and she is not obligated to take your grandmother in, no matter how hard your grandmother tries to convince her she does, but you know that. I know you’ll use the arguments in this thread. Please let us know what specific arguments your mother uses when she explains why she’s considering doing this. Maybe she’s looking for arguments she can throw back at your grandmother.
Well, after reading your post I feel obligated to share my viewpoint. I do not intend this to be representative of your grandmother’s thoughts, but consider that she and I are of the same age.
I would be so thrilled if I were to be actually invited to live with family again, the past circumstances be damned. It is an opportunity to make matters right, to set grievances aside or to simply talk things over. This is a chance not be alone among strangers and be secure in the knowledge that the people sleeping in the adjoining rooms actually care about your arthritic hip. I assume your mother does care for otherwise, she would not have been invited. Ideally, all involved should acknowledge that the daughter/mother they will now be living with is no longer the same person as the layabout/Evil Despot they once were. Different times call for different measures. Unlikely to happen - yes, but necessary if they were to live under the same roof again. BitchGrandma also has to have enough humility to know that it is her daughter’s space now and to follow the rules of the house as laid down by her. I will let you know how difficult this is as BitchGrandma likely still remembers how she dealt with your mother’s diapers, not to mention something as devastating as the suicide of a spouse.
All that said, Grandma seems like someone should take a switch to her; namely myself.
Thanks, everybody; I’m at work and don’t have time to respond to everyone as I’d like, but a couple of quick takes:
No, grandma has never to my knowledge acknowledged or apologized for her past behavior.
This whole thing got started because my mother sent me a text message saying she needs therapy and telling me why: I called her last night while she and my father were out walking the dogs and told her that if she thinks she needs therapy she does. Hopefully, she’ll listen to herself.
Battleaxe - one of the things I told Mom she should talk to a therapist about is how to set boundaries with Grandma if/when the move in is settled.
So did Coyotemom’s feel she needed therapy because she even thought of letting BitchGrandma move in? (Which is what I would feel to be justified)
Or did Coyotemom convince herself she ought to let BitchGrandma move in, while deluding herself that her genuine feeling of dread of that plan “would be solved in therapy?”. Of that the whole plan would be feasible if only Coyotemom would take a crash course in “setting boundaries” ? (So BitchGrandma wouldn’t have to change?)
This is a difficult situation because a person can feel terribly guilty about refusing to help their parent, even if said parent was nasty to them.
I think you (and your father) should try to talk your mother out of it, but be extremely tactful.
She’s emotional and doesn’t want to be told she’s a fool who will be punished by you if Granny moves in (even if that’s all true).
I’ve seen both sides of this - my parents were put under immense strain by one of my (unreasonable) grandmothers demanding lodgings and yet I was proud to help my (completely lovable) parents when they needed it (they didn’t ask, but I knew they deserved it).
When I read your OP I thought,maybe your mom is above all that, then I see in post #12 grandma is coercing her.
But,keeping Shayna and Maastricht’s posts in mind,it still seems possible your mother’s internal rationale may be for the best of what’s human which in comparison to her siblings seems she has a good grasp of.
I had a relative who while raising three sons in a three bedroom house took in her mother-in-law,her demented father,and her deceased sister’s aging husband,who would pee in her potted plants.No doubt it was insane in that house,but she lived a long life without rancour and didn’t bitch too much during those years.
I suspect that its EASIER to refuse to help a parent if the parent wasn’t nasty. My mother, who has been absolutely wonderful my entire life (or as wonderful as any parent - there was that time when I was fourteen), would not WANT to move in with us - she knows how difficult it would be for Brainiac4 to have his mother in law move in (and therefore, how much stress it would put on our marriage). More abusive relationships are built on guilt and manipulation - and it isn’t like sixty years of patterns are suddenly going to disappear.
She DOES have places to go. Someone should talk to your county social worker about getting her into subsidized senior housing (there may be a waiting list) if she is too healthy yet for a nursing home.
And I think your Dad should step in and be willing to play the heavy. Your mother may be more comfortable saying “Bob just won’t allow it, Mom - you know how he is.” Its manipulative, but at this age and point in the relationship, it may be a little late for establishing healthy open and honest communication patterns.
I agree that growing up with shitty parents CAN result in kids that act sweet, selfless, eager to please, eager to be " a good person". I even believe that many altruistic caregivers became “givers” because they, well, were taught to give. And if that is the case, I’d say: “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. If mustering the angelic patience necessary to deal with BitchGrandma really comes naturally to Coyotemom, all the better.
But the fact that Coyotemom started to acknowledge a problem (she mentioned therapy, however she meant that) tells me that the first cracks in her unquestioning acceptance of BitchGrandma’s quirks have appeared. And, again in my experience, then the moment of the dam bursting isn’t really far off anymore. And does Coyotemom really want Bitchgrandma living with her when her dam really breaks and all the old resentment and pain breaks through?
I don’t agree with you.I love my grand mother .we live together for many years.i and my family members are so happy in these days.When she is gone we felt so sad.
As I am interpreting what she has told me, she feels she needs therapy because she feels guilty about letting grandma move in. Not the first thing, closer to the second thing but not exactly that, either.
Sreeja, I’m glad you have a good relationship with your grandmother. Truly. And things may work out better than I expect between my mother and my grandmother. The fact that mom and grandma are having a power play in the kitchen about whether the glasses go open end up or open end down doesn’t bode well, however.
Actually, other than the fact that I live in a one bedroom apartment, having grandma move in with me wouldn’t be that bad an idea, because-even though she’s my grandmother-I’m not afraid to tell her no.
Unfortunately, the odds of my father saying word one are slim to none. I was shocked when he told my sister and I he anticipated grandma moving in because he said he wasn’t happy about it, not because he accepted it as inevitable. I can count the number of times my father has said something about his inner emotional landscape on the fingers of one hand.
I don’t know, though. He may well have talked to Mom about this while they were out walking the CoyoteHounds.
I’ve had my tactful say on the subject. Mom doesn’t want to look into senior homes because she doesn’t think grandma can afford it and because she remembers how horrible the place was that my great-grandmother ended up. I am reliably informed that despite our nominal Presbyterianism*, my family is actually more Catholic in our guilt levels. I said I think looking for another place for grandma is a much better idea, and I reiterated that if Mom is thinking about therapy, then she needs to get it. Because everyone in the family is really much too close to help with this.
Okay, so I’m a Unitarian Universalist, and a pagan one at that. Still.^