Moral Question in the Consumer Arena

OK, a friend of mine faces the following situtation:

He bought a cordless phone at Best Buy and it stopped working. The Tech Support rep ran him through some things over the phone then told him to send it in for repair since it is still under warranty. The problem is that he can’t find the receipt and without it, the manufacturer will charge him a $50 “service fee” to repair it.

He just realized that he could go back to Best Buy, buy a duplicate phone, then switch his broken one for the new one and return it to Best Buy, complaining that it doesn’t work.

Now, his claim won’t be true, but Best Buy will simply send the phone back to the manufacturer anyway and no one will lose a dime.

Whadd’ya all think? I told him I knew just who to ask…

  1. Buys phone #1.
  2. Phone #1 doesn’t work.
  3. No luck getting phone #1 fixed under warranty because doesn’t have receipt.
  4. Buys phone #2.
  5. Takes broken phone #1 to store with receipt for phone #2 and gets broken phone #1 fixed under warranty.

End result: has two phones.

I have the feeling I’m missing something here. Maybe the thrill of consumer combat? Is it maybe a guy thing?

It’s just paperwork. Tell him to be a good little aperatchik and figure it out for himself.

“The exit door leads in, he thought to himself. Which is to say: when they want you, they already have you – all they need is the paperwork. And a computer can process forms at the touch of a key. The H key for Hell and the S key for Slave, he thought. And the Y key for You.” – Phillip K. Dick, “The Exit Door Leads In”

Lemme see if I understand this correctly:

  1. He buys new phone at Best Buy.

  2. Using receipt of new phone, he sends old phone back to be repaired.

  3. When old phone is returned repaired, he returns either the new phone or old phone for a refund using receipt from new phone.

Is that right? In that case, go for it. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. At least as far as I can tell. It’s not like he doesn’t deserve to get it fixed, he did buy it there he just happened to lose the receipt. That’s what I would do anyway.

No… I’m not explaining his plan properly.

He intends to return the 1st (broken) phone to Best Buy, pretending that it is the second phone.

He will, in effect, swap his broken one with a working phone from their stock.

Clearer?

The only moral consideration I can see here is whether or not the lie (repairing phone #1 using phone #2’s receipt) is justifiable. IMO, while the lie is still a lie, it is permissible. He isn’t going to be getting something which he is not entitled to in principle, even though someone who is a stickler for detail could argue that he is no longer entitled to the repair since he didn’t fulfill his end of the bargain, namely keeping the receipt. I believe the spirit of the agreement would not be violated even if the letter of the agreement is.

Does he have any other record of the sale? Does not the store keep records? Checks, credit cards?

But, for 50$, do it the 'exchange" way. It is fair. What is unfair is them asking him for proof he bought it there, when it does not matter at all. They act as a 'agent" for that company, and will be able to return the broken phone, and it will cost them nothing. There is no reason for them not to accept his word- “the customer is always right”.

Ptah- there does not have to be a “lie”- he buys the new phone, takes in the old phone, and says " i bought this here & it does not work"- when asked for a recipt, he hands over A reciept.

But, sdim, he wil still end up with 2 phones. 1. Bought phone A, it does not work. Goes in, buys phone B, which does work. Takes phone A, with reciept for Phone B in, and gets phone C. he now has phones B&C.

About a year ago, I had a printer that took a dirt nap after a few months of use. I had bought it at Best Buy, but did not have the reciept. I did have the notation in my checkbook, though, of the date I bought it, and the amount. Because I had this information, Best Buy told me to call up some 800 number they had, and they sent me a copy of my reciept. I don’t believe there was a charge. When they sent a copy of my reciept to me, I took in in, with my printer, and all was resolved. It was worth the wait.

If your friend can go through his checkbook, or his credit card statements, and pinpoint the appropriate Best Buy purchase, he might be able to restore his reciept that way. He should ask Best Buy if they still offer this option.

Don’t do it. Please, for the love of God, don’t do it.

-a Kmart clerk-we can see through these scams. Please.

Congrats Yosemitebabe for presenting an ethical solution, free from fraud on the consumer’s part.

The rest of you failed the ethics test. Apparently you feel that fraud and deception is justified to save you any inconvenience or personal responsibility for your own actions.

In the future, please direct morality questions to your God, Nature, or the Pink Unicorn. Ethics and morals are not one and the same even though they may share some common ground.

I think it would be acceptable.

I do believe some are missing the point though.
When this person brings the first phone back with second receipt, he gets his money back.
He is only keeping the second ‘working’ phone.

  1. This person has still purchased a phone from BB.
  2. BB has money for purchase of one phone.
  3. Broken phone is sent for repair.

So Edlyn, you paragon of virtue you, mind elaborating on your ethical objections, or on why lying isn’t a moral consideration?

absoul

Thanks for trying to clear up the confusion.

You see gang, my friend plans to put Broken Phone A into the box from Working Phone B and return it. Not exchange it… return it for a refund, keeping the working phone in its place.

yosemitebabe, that’s a great idea, one I had not thought of. I guess that, since the Holiday rush is on, I never considered appealing to BB for assistace. It seems that the CustSvc department takes the Holiday Season off.

Guinastasia: -a Kmart clerk-we can see through these scams.

I have two questions for you:

First, how could you see through the “scam”? My friend would simply buy a phone on Monday and return it on Wednesday claiming it did not work. He would say, “No, thanks, but I don’t want another phone. I found a better deal on the internet. Just credit my card, please.” If you took the phone out of the box to test it, you would find that it in fact did not work. How would you catch him?

Secondly, what is the “scam” exactly? That’s a pejoritive (?) term, is it not? What is wrong with the plan?

With me, this would be easy. I couldn’t do it and keep a straight face. Of course, I know this and wouldn’t even get in the car to try. However this makes me capable of making a credible enough fuss to get the refund without resorting to fraud. And yes it is fraud. If you could not get a refund without the first purchase, making the second purchase with no intention to actually buy the good is an attempt to obtain a financial advantage by deception.

In case this looks too much like complete support of Edlyn’s position: my inability to be opportunistic even when it would only serve to recompense me for legitimate losses might in some circumstances be a serious disadvantage in a world where others have no such scruples. Fortunately I am cunning, educated, well-off and have a reputation for vengeance. Plus my wife is a lawyer who is all that and very protective of me.

Re Guinastasia in her capacity as K-Mart clerk.

It wouldn’t be up to the front-line grunt at the register. Your friend would be sent to the service desk, where there would be a Manager (that god-like being) who is specially trained to deal with this sort of thing.

So, you’re bringing Broken Phone #1 back with the receipt from Phone #2, and asking for a refund. Will it be because “it’s broken”, or because “I found the same thing cheaper on the Internet”?

Management tends to assume that the goods on their shelves are in working order when the consumer adds them to his shopping cart. If you show up at the Service Desk with something that you claim was “broken when I got it home,” you have a better chance of getting a refund if you come back to the store almost immediately, like the same day.

Admittedly, it’s not likely that the Manager is going to take the phone out of the box and test it, especially during the busy Christmas season. However, if you’re returning it because “I found the same thing on the Internet,” and if the Manager does take the phone out of the box and test it, and finds that it didn’t work, she not going to simply shrug and say, “Oh, this phone doesn’t work. Here’s your money back anyway.” She’s going to say, “Oh, this phone doesn’t work. You must have broken it while it was in your custody. No refund.” (italics mine)

And if you then go on to explain that it was broken when you got it home, her well-honed suspicions are going to be aroused, because she knows that if it was broken when you got home, you would have turned right around and come back to the store and SAID, “It was broken when I got home.”

Now, maybe you can pretend to be surprised when she tests it and finds out it’s broken. How good an actor are you? Probably Saturday or Sunday afternoon, when they’re totally swamped, would be the best time to attempt this.

Of course, it’s totally dishonest, and I’m ashamed of you for even suggesting such a thing. Sooner or later, somebody in Management will test that phone to see whether it works, before putting it back on the shelf, and it won’t be repaired, it will be thrown away or remaindered to one of those Big Lots stores, and either way, Best Buy will have to eat it.

I’m with YosemiteBabe, you should talk to these people. Best Buy WANTS you to be a satisfied customer. Honesty is the best policy; get hold of the manager, be polite but firm, explain the problem, and see what happens.

What?? They sold you a product that did not work. You returned it to them, and ended up with a working version of the product instead. There’s realy nothing fraudulent going on.

“Hi. I bought this phone. It doesn’t work.”
“Do you have a reciept?”
“Yep.”
“Ok. Here’s your money back.”

I don’t see anything wrong going on here.

DDG,

Hey! Nice to see you again! (It’s been a while.)

Regarding your post:

Something funny is going on here. Either you’re not understanding me or I’m not understanding you.

He is planning on bringing it back “immediately.” The claim will be, “I got it home and it didn’t work.”

When the CustSvc Rep offers an exchange, his reply will be in the negative. All he wants is his money back. If he is pressed for a reason, his intenet story could come into play, but he needn’t give any reason at all; “This phone you sold me is broken, please give me my money back.”

I don’t see how it is “totally dishonest;” I started this thread to examine that point. I hope, when the dust settles, that you are no longer ashamed of me. :wink:

BTW, the phone will not be thrown away or sent to a Bog Lot store, It will be returned to the manufacturer who will repair it and give it to the owner of another broken item as a refurbished replacement, just as if he sent it directly to them for repair instead of using the store as a middleman.

Did I clear anything up?

Edlyn: I wish to point out that I also asked if there were any other records of the sale.

But here is the point- the phone was bought at that retailer, and it can be returned to that retailer for a refund. Thus, by doing so, sdims freind is not being unethical or “scamming”. Now, if he had bought the phone elsewhwere, or had rcvd it as a gift, and not known where it was bought, then, yes, there would be some minor ethics problem involved. The store has a ethical responsibility to stand behind the merchandise it sells. If, sdims freind went to all the trouble of going to small claims court, he would undoubtedly win- but for that amount there is no use. They store should have offerd to look up the sale in THEIR records, so no reciept was needed.

Still, it would be better to check for some other record of the sale.

And i understand, now, what sdim was sayinf- he will return the phone- becuase it is broken; but ask for a refund, instead of a replacement, as he 'bought another one".

Um, Best Buy did NOT sell him a broken phone. It broke after some unspecified amount of time., but it was within the warrenty period (anywhere up to a year or two depending on the product). The repair facility has to demand proof of purchase (that’s why you keep it for items with a warrenty)

And, as far as, ‘how would they know’? serial numbers perhaps? lot numbers? oh, maybe it’ll even show signs of use?

I’m withYosemite on this one. Had your friend kept the reciept, there would have been no problem getting it fixed. Since they failed to do that, trying to rationalize how it should be some one else’s responsability is just, well, rationalization.

He’s getting the run-around. Have him go in and speak to a manager. Explain that he bought the phone there, it is defective, and he would either like his money back (which he won’t get without a recipt) or store credit (which they should give with or without a reciept.) They may also keep electronic reciepts (Which Circuit City does).

WHEN they give him a store credit (which I’m sure they will), he can then buy the phone.

If they won’t work with him on it, I would make sure he let them know he is very unhappy with their service and is going to shop elsewhere from now on. Then I would do exactly what he planned on (with buying the new one and returning the bad one) the day after Christmas, when the store is a mob-scene and you could return a dead body without getting a second glance.

By the way, I see the tech support person told him to return it to them under warentee- did he even call the Best Buy manager about it? I’m asking because I had a problem like this with a printer I bought at Circuit City- my choices were to either send it out for repair, or get my money back (or credit). They weren’t concerned about if I had a reciept or not, just if I was satisfied.

PS- my sister works as a retail manager, and she herself has done the old “switch-a-roo”. She said that all defective merchandise just gets sent back to the manufacturer and the store gets credit for it. I wouldn’t feel bad at all about doing it.

Zette