It should at this point be noted pedantically that, in the published works of the Professor, there was no indication that the Glorfindel of The LotR was the Glorfindel who shows up in The Simlarillion. Undoubtedly, it was just another example of him borrowing a name/character from his legendarium to use in the book. But, of course, it would be hard to imagine an elf of such renown having his name used by another elf, so in unpublished essays, the Professor did, indeed, attempt to reconcile the conflict inherent in having a dead elf showing up again in the Third Age.
And this example shows exactly where the difficulty lies in trying to really establish what characters like Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Ungoliant, Glaurung, Thorondor, et alia are. Professor Tolkien himself struggled with reconciling the various things he had written over the course of 40-plus years. Indeed, we tend to think of the First Age portion of his writings as having a fairly static quality, based upon the version of them we were presented with in The Silmarillion (1977). But, as we later learned, that would be an incorrect way of viewing those tales; they were constantly in motion from the mid-1910s through Tolkien’s death in 1974. Part of why they were in constant motion is that the Professor’s concept of how Eä worked was being modified over time. But a large part of what kept it in motion was trying to figure out how the much more popular LotR could be reconciled with these “earlier” writings.
That’s why I prefer to leave many such contradictions and mysteries alone. Tom Bombadil is the classic example. Goldberry puts it best when she says, “He is.” His origin is unimportant, his classification is impossible. He is a creature/person/entity who will exist as long as Arda exists, over whom no other power can truly hold sway, and who has little or no interest in the struggles of the various powers contesting mastery of Arda. And Frodo and his friends were lucky he came along when he did, lucky he saved them from the barrow-wight (another of those difficult to explain things), and very lucky to have learned something useful about the world from having stayed with him. He was the Beorn of the sequel.
Well, it’s ambiguous what one means by Glorfindel’s age. Certainly, he was born more recently than Galadriel was… but he might also have been born before her.
You could justifiably count his age from first birth, from second birth, or from first birth but excluding the time that he spent dead.
Out of an odd coincidence, some of my friends decided to start watching this over the weekend. I only caught part of it, most of the 1st (extended) movie.
When they got to the council at Rivendell, someone piped up, “Why don’t they just take it with them to the ‘undying lands.’”
There was some question about the safety of the journey, and whether or not the Valinor would allow it to enter their lands, but nothing definitive.
Other than making the books and movies much, much shorter than they are, is there a good reason that it would not be safe out of the the hands of Sauron?
Well Sauron was going to win anyway. There was no manner in which the free people could win a protracted struggled with Mordor unless they wielded the ring and so fall. So even if you send the ring into the west the success of Sauron is achieved.
Yeah, Sauron even without the Ring was doing a pretty good job of kicking butt. Sauron with the ring would do an even better job of it, but that just means that he’d finish conquering the continent nigh-instantaneously instead of taking (at best) a couple of years.
“Then if the ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength,” said Glorfindel, “two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.”
“But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,” said Elrond. “And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.”
If I had been in attendance, I would have asked to delve a little deeper on that whole “those who dwell beyond the Sea” thing. It was one of their own that made the damn thing - they can step up and take a little responsibility.
But it appears that Tolkien intended Elrond’s statement to be a debate-ender. A “Top. Men.” moment.
For me, the contradictions are the final touch that makes Tolkiens’ stories mythic. Real mythologies are full of contradictions, and those contradictions are an effect of many retellings. The fact that the Tolkien stories don’t always agree with each other adds verisimilitude.
Seeking the “truth” can be fun, but it’s not the only way to interpret stories.
Not in the book, but with the bending of the world the Valar effectively removed themselves from direct involvement in Middle Earth. Things of Middle Earth remained in Middle Earth. That didn’t preclude them from sending the Istari but it did remove the more direct approaches.
Though on reflection, would Frodo’s dream in Bombadil’s house, near the Withywindle, count as a sending from Ulmo?
Maybe, but Frodo’s dream in Bombadil’s house could alternatively be a result of the Ring’s connection to the other rings. Gandalf bore Narya, and it’s possible that the dream reflects a subconscious awareness Frodo acquired through the Ring. Similarly, his dream of the tower and the sea could have come through the connection to Nenya, perhaps showing a vision Galadriel saw in her Mirror mingled with her impulse to leave the struggle and go into the West herself.
I have my own thoughts on Tom Bombadil as well, but they’re kind of sweeping, and I can’t offer any real textual support for them.
Also, my recollection is that the reason that the Valar had vowed not to directly intervene in Middle-Earth was the catastrophic damage that was done to the land in the First Age, when they did move against Morgoth. Thus, their “stepping up” was limited to indirect intervention, in sending the Wizards.
The Valar may have kept a lower profile in the affairs of Middle Earth at the beginning of the Second Age, but it wasn’t until Tar-Pharazon’s assault on the Undying Lands that they “lay down their guardianship” of the world, and presumably removed themselves entirely from mortal doings.
(I always thought it odd that Tolkien chose to end the Second Age with the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron, instead of the literally cataclysmic world-changing events above. On the other hand…each age ends with a defeat of the forces of Evil, so at least it’s consistent.)
Actually that was good work on Jacksons part. Why introduce yet another character? And Arwen wasnt give enuf to do, the work needed more strong female characters.
It wouldnt make any difference. Then Sauron wins much slower and by force of arms. Oh sure the three elf strongholds hold out for a long time, but even they fail. Nope, hiding the Ring doesnt help.
A trivial thing; but with Glorfindel having come up in the thread – I always feel that this is one of Tolkien’s less-happy inspirations re naming of characters. I find it a bit of a clunky word, generally; plus, can’t help feeling it suggestive of a proprietary brand of, say, metal polish. Somewhat spoils the character’s might-and-majesty for me.
