Felice
“There’s always a bigger fish.”
Oh David B. Don’t flatter yerself! 
I’m in Love;I don’t want you, you MUST go on without me…
You left out: “Bluebird begins posting as Smilingjaws.” Nice to see that the sock puppets aren’t only for those who are schizoid but are also available to the bigots.
Monty: huh??
I do notice that the LDS gets picked on alot.
I gotta say, I feel a little sorry for Mormons. At least when the majority of other religions were made up, the authors had extensive knowledge of actual past events, and could make up stories that had grains of truth. But poor Jo Smith, had no clue of past history on North America, and made up stories that are so far removed from any possibility, that many of the stories can’t even be told anymore, without inviting snickers from even the usually gullible religious types. Oh well, maybe its better in the long run, and Mormons will have a better chance of breaking free from religious voo doo. But alas, I know, if you were to actually admit to being an athiest, it would kill your parents, and deeply offend and hurt your friends and family, and you don’t have the heart to do that! I know, I’ve been there…
Bossbuster, please give an example in LDS theology/scriptures that is less believable than the following:
A talking snake convinces a woman to eat a piece of fruit, thereby getting her and her husband cast out of paradise.
A man with a walking stick parts the waters of the Red Sea so widely that approximately 3 million people can cross it in a very short time.
The sun stands still in the sky so that a man named Joshua can prevail in a battle.
A child is conceived by miraculous means in the womb of a woman, of child of the Holy Ghost. This child is the Son of God, according to the Bible (and other scriptures, if you believe in the Book of MOrmon).
A man turns water into wine, heals hundreds of lepers, blind people, cripples, etc., is nailed to a cross for his “crimes,” dies, and comes back to life after 3 days, and then ascends into the sky after tarrying a while with his disciples.
So you’re essentially saying that these Biblical events are believable because their original “writers” had knowledge of the past, yet the Book of Mormon, which contains similar miracles, can’t possibly be taken seriously? Sounds like a double-standard to me…
Bossbuster, please give an example in LDS theology/scriptures that is less believable than the following:
Wow, I admit you picked some whoppers, but I think I can still pull it off.
- A talking snake convinces a woman to eat a piece of fruit, thereby getting her and her husband cast out of paradise.
You’ll notice that the author here chose a “snake” and a generic piece of “fruit” when making up this story. He didnt say a “buffallo” and a piece of “wrigleys chewing gum”. two things that couldn’t have possibly existed in that time/place. To be fair, the author wasn’t a genius, he just had not been polluted by as much time/distance as Mr Smith.
- A man with a walking stick parts the waters of the Red Sea so widely that approximately 3 million people can cross it in a very short time.
notice walking stick, red sea, “things” and a race of people that actually exsited. He didn’t say laser gun and…Wow, 3 million? Are you sure? I used to think that was just a really silly story,I may have to start thinking of it in the “Super Silly” realm.
- The sun stands still in the sky so that a man named Joshua can prevail in a battle.
Hey, you cant prove it didn’t happen, and thats all you need for most religious types! And that’s my main point! If your reckless and get too specific when you make up stories, they can actually be disproved. Which is the “holy grail”, so to speak, of religion. If it can’t be disproven, we’re still o.k.! Which is also why alot of christians are so pissed at mormons, they think they got too careless in making up their version, and now people might start to think its “all” made up, the old and new testimate too!(gasp!)
- A child is conceived by miraculous means in the womb of a woman, of child of the Holy Ghost. This child is the Son of God, according to the Bible (and other scriptures, if you believe in the Book of MOrmon).
Sure its silly… but at least it doesn’t say that 3 wisemen implanted a frozen “holy” ebryo in Mary while her husband “Napoleon” looked on.
- A man turns water into wine, heals hundreds of lepers, blind people, cripples, etc., is nailed to a cross for his “crimes,” dies, and comes back to life after 3 days, and then ascends into the sky after tarrying a while with his disciples.
If Jo Smith were to write this story today, He would claim that 1000 years ago( and not 2000 years ago, because that would just be silly!), A man turned Coke into Rootbeer, healed millions of aids patients and those suffering from carpel tunnel syndrome. Was crucified in an electric chair and then cloned 3 days later.
So you’re essentially saying that these Biblical events are believable because their original “writers” had knowledge of the past, yet the Book of Mormon, which contains similar miracles, can’t possibly be taken seriously? Sounds like a double-standard to me…
I’m saying they are “more” believable to most religious types. I realize they are both wacky, but one is more easily disproved.
No double standard at all…to me it’s obvious that Jo Smith’s lack of knowledge of “real” North American history, made it very hard for him to make up as convincing a tale. Which is something most other religious authors didn’t have to deal with.
Oh my, almost forgot specific LDS stories.
2 Nephi 5:somewhere in the 14-15 range.
…And I (Nephi) did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all the manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
Wow… opening yourself up to a major critique, without so much as a tiny god like miricle. A good flashy miricle would have at least distracted some from the impossibilities. As if basic metals weren’t silly enough, he had the balls to include “steel”!
If you wish, I can give you more, mostly dealing with animals and other things that didnt exist in north america. Things that most settlers of the time mistakingly “asumed” about north america.
Now look what you’ve reduced me to. Someone who rambles on about the sillyness of one religion vs. the more sillyness of another.
May God ;)have mercy on my computer.
Bossbuster, please go to your nearest library and check out the following book: Answers to Book of Mormon Questions by Sidney B. Sperry, Bookcraft, 1976. One of its chapters explains that the Nephites could easily have known about iron, steel and other metal-working skills. There may be a more recent version of this book.
Bossbuster: Please fasten your seatbelt for the rest of this post. Thanks.
Firstly, your response to Flinx that he can’t prove something didn’t happen is a cop-out. Anyway, feel free to do a search of this very site for the bit about the sun standing still. It’s been proven that event not only did not happen, but could not have happened.
Secondly, your assertion that the writers of the Torah had more affinity with the historical facts is quaint, to be polite. Neither of the two DIFFERENT creation accounts in the Torah even approaches the standards of fact.
Thirdly, the three great religions promulgated by the Torah are not even the three oldest extant faiths on this planet. So, tell me now, with no avoiding or sidestepping the issue, why you don’t believe the Hindu creation stories?
Fourthly, there are approximately 10 million LDS and a heck of a lot more bigots. We can’t control what the bigots do or say. So why don’t you reserve your pity for them?
**Flinx Said:
Bossbuster, please go to your nearest library and check out the following book: Answers to Book of Mormon Questions…**
Though I’ve never read the book , I’ve read the rebuttles at mormon sites, and had quotes from the book thrown at me before, but i’ll try to find them again so as to be more specific…give me a day or two…
**Then Monty wrote…
Bossbuster: Please fasten your seatbelt for the rest of this post. Thanks.**
Don’t got one on my swivel chair, just have to hope my monitor has impact glass!
**Firstly, your response to Flinx that he can’t prove something didn’t happen is a cop-out. **
Of course it’s a cop out, that was at least half of my point!
It’s been proven that event not only did not happen, but could not have happened
Of course it couldn’t have happened. What does reality have to do with religion?
Neither of the two DIFFERENT creation accounts in the Torah even approaches the standards of fact.
again, same answer. What do facts have to do with religion?
So, tell me now, with no avoiding or sidestepping the issue, why you don’t believe the Hindu creation stories?
Easy, the same reason I don’t believe any of them! There all fantasy!
Fourthly, there are approximately 10 million LDS and a heck of a lot more bigots. We can’t control what the bigots do or say. So why don’t you reserve your pity for them?
More bigots than mormons? Maybe…We can’t control Bigots?..As opposed to being able to control the LDS ? I do reserve some pity for Bigots though…It’s just a little harder, because they are even sillier. Even though some would consider me a Super Bigot, because I knock not just one religion, but all of them!
I’ve decided to not reply to all this because I can’t go back and read everything, but I do want to say that I am Mormon and I happen to be Bossbusters daughter and though we don’t agree on quite a lot it’s good to know that I can always talk to him about what I believe. He is definately NOT small minded on this subject, but he doesn’t know everything about it either so… Please don’t take everything as fact. I love you dad. Smiles to everyone and remember you are all special children in the Heavenly Fathers eyes.
love is hard work, and hard work sometimes hurts.
Bossbuster, here’s a couple of web pages on the “All About Mormons” site ( www.mormons.org ) that deal with your questions about the Book of Mormon.
Hope these pages help. The All About Mormons site is great for answering people’s questions about Mormonism. You might try browsing it sometime. 
**Meeshka Anya said:
I am Mormon and I happen to be Bossbusters daughter and though we don’t agree on quite a lot it’s good to know that I can always talk to him about what I believe. **
Ooo…Your grounded! No computer for a week!
Oh, and BTW Flinx
That was one of the sites I checked out, as well as http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/
and a few more when I realized there was no way I’d get to the library this week to get the book you suggested (ours has very limited hours and days)
(Once again please realize, that the following generally goes against my better judgement and usual practice, ie singleing out “one religions” problems, as opposed to my preference of pointing out the general problems with all of them.)
There did seem to be some updates since the last time I was there. But in general, I have to stick with my original arguments. To suggest that a group of people may have had knowledge of some metalurgy, as proof that they could have used it on a large scale, falls short.
As far as plant and animal problems go…
I find the “translational problems argument” weak at best. Sure, some translational inaccuracies are reasonable, but not that many to that extent.
What’s most disturbing is “how many” excuses they provide.
The Translation of Jo Smith was an imperfect process.
The Scribes were imperfect. And under pressure.
The publisher had an axe to grind. (at least it wan’t a plutonium axe)
With all those problems, it may help to cover Jo Smiths butt as an outright fraud, but then you have a whole new can of worms don’t you. Maybe “Save” doesn’t quite mean “Save”, Etc… etc… yada… yada… as if I believe in, or care about that jargon anyway.
I was also a little dismayed at their beefs against the “Smithsonian”, without mentioning how the controversy really started!
At least there was some admission of being disturbed by the issue of blacks, but there was hardly a good explanation.
However…in the future, let’s please debate the problems common to all christian… or even better, all religions! One at a time is practically nitpicking. (so many religions, so little time)
Todd
I could be wrong…it happend once before…
Bossbuster wrote:
From Metals, Weapons and the Book of Mormon:
[Bolding mine–Flinx)
Bossbuster wrote:
As the article I referred to you says, on matters not affecting salvation, the Lord maybe didn’t see fit to intervene just to change “horse” to “antelope” (just a hypothetical example). On matters affecting salvation, however, I believe that JS was inspired to produce a completely faithful translation.
There’s a difference between misnaming a horse and getting a point necessary for salvation across, IMHO. There can be no real comparison between the two.
Are you going to throw away your salvation because ancient Americans possibly didn’t mean “horse” when they said “horse” (another hypothetical)? I find that a pretty shabby excuse to reject God. When non- and anti-Mormons have to resort to nitpicking like that, you have to wonder if they really understand the Book of Mormon at all.
But believe and do as you please, of course.
Hi this may have already been posted, Sorry I just fuzzed forward to the final page, but I found WWW.exmormon.org a very useful resource when I was looking on the net for information about the mormon religion. It’s useful to read in association with the “official” mormon websites. There are stories of many mormons some still in the faith and others who have left, and talks about areas of the faith and culture that many had found difficult. I found it a fascinating site.
I hope this is useful.
Life is what happens while you’re making plans. ~ John Lennon
Oleta wrote:
Yes, much like a site on “Biblical Creation Science” would be a very useful resource when you’re looking for information about evolution.
Lemonade…10 cents
Snakes…50 cents
Oleta wrote:
And because the over 125 individual stories
are by ex-mormons, mormons can’t use the “you know nothing about us, so your ignorant comments mean little” excuse.
I could be wrong…it happend once before…
I dunno, Boss…one strategy of at least one group of anti-Mormons (I believe it’s “Ex-Mormons for Jesus,” but I could be mistaken) is for people who have never been members to present themselves as former Mormons who were disenchanted from the church. I can’t tell you how many posts I’ve seen on the Left Behind Message Board (LBMB) that start out, “I used to be a Mormon, but then I found Jesus…”, and most of these people get LDS theology all wrong when they list reasons why they left.
It’s called “Lying for the Lord,” I believe.
Yes, there are disgruntled Mormons who leave the church. So what? There are disgruntled Catholics who leave the Catholic church too. There are disgruntled Presbyterians who leave that church. Anecdotal evidence proves very little about anything.
Lemonade…10 cents
Snakes…50 cents
ok, I guess its that time of the week again.
It’s called “Lying for the Lord,” I believe.
interesting you should bring that up!
Dallin H. Oaks, Apostle, “Gospel Teachings About Lying”, Clark Memorandum BYU (Spring 1994 pg. 16-17). In this Oaks acknowledges ‘Lying for the Lord’ by early Mormon leaders. Joseph Smith lied about many of his activities and the overwhelming historical evidence forced Oaks to admit the lies. Among Mormons and former Mormons it has become known as “Lying for the Lord”.
sorces for above: http://www.caic.org.au/zmor-beliefs.htm http://www.exmormon.org/lying.htm
Yes, there are disgruntled Mormons who leave the church. So what? There are disgruntled Catholics who leave the Catholic church too. There are disgruntled Presbyterians who leave that church. Anecdotal evidence proves very little about anything.
“So what” you say?! When pointing out flaws of the catholic church, I think ex-catholics would be a very valuble source! Come on!
And just out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would prove anything to you? Could you even think of anything that would shake your faith? I doubt it, you’ve got all potential problems covered. Alltough they’re covered with tape and rubberbands. ( A problem hardly exclusive to Mormonism.)
But just incase you can think of something, I bet I can put on my “pretend mormon hat” , and let you know why you’d be silly to let, what ever it was, bother you! Why it would be nothing worth “losing your soul” for!!!
I’d like to respond to more of your comments with some words from LDS itself, but it seems I’ll be sued if I do…(see following)
http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/tanner2.htm
I could be wrong…it happend once before…