Mormons and gays - again!

The BBQ Pit
41

First off, Mormons don’t “hate” homosexuals. The majority of LDS Members honestly don’t care either way. And if Mormons were acting the way they are TAUGHT, then they would be open and loving to everybody.

The reason the LDS CHurch has a problem with homosexuality is because we have one reason to be on Earth, and that’s to have a family. And after we die, the highest degree of Heaven is when a woman and a man are married and can create whole worlds together-or one very large family. That’s it. The Family is central to God’s plan for his children. Now, obviously a gay couple can adopt, (And I strongly believe they should, if they are ready to have kids), but that is not the same as bringing life into the world.

It has nothing to do with hate, homophobia, or lifestyle “Choices” or anything else. It has to do with following God’s plan. That’s it. Just because Sqrl, or Esprix, or anybody else says being homosexual is good, natural, and OK, doens’t mean that the LDS Church is going to change it’s stance. And because I believe all of the doctrine is handed down from God to President Gordon B. Hinkley, and Elder Packer et al, then I assume that God’s stance on homosexuality is not changing.

FTR, I don’t take the stance of other Christians in general, and I don’t feel the need to cast everybody in two groups, the one’s going to hell, and the one’s going to heaven. For a few reasons. But the biggest reason is that I feel a person’s relationship (or lack thereof) with God is their own business. I have a hard enough time keeping track of myself to worry about what other people are doing. And that’s how LDS members are taught to live. Worry about yourself, and God will take care of the rest. Do all Mormons live that way? Probably not. SHould they? Yes. Should you judge the whole religion based on the actions of a few? No I have perfect faith that God will judge everybody accordingly, and doesn’t need any help from me.

So, on that note, I would like to say that I would NEVER EVER persume to say “Oh, well, all gay people are biological errors and will probably go to hell.” What I will think is, “He/she is like me, a Child of God. I know God loves them, as much as He loves me, and He will know how and why to judge them on Judgement Day. In the mean time, it’s my job, responsibility, and sacred duty to love and cherish him/her and everybody else for the wonderful people they are.”
I guess if Sqrl is right, and that line of reasoning makes me homophobic and bigoted, I better tell that to my two closest friends on this board: Anthracite and Chef Troy. They would probably want to know. And if it, like Satan as so eloquently puts it, makes me an asshole, well, I guess that’s the way it has to be. I’m not willing to change it.

42

It’s mutual. And I realize that Esprix did not start this thread to be a jerk. Esprix is more reasonable, intelligent, and respectful than that. It was some of the posters after the OP that caught my eye.

43

How interesting to characterize being gay as “taking a dick in the ass”, completely ignoring the love and caring that two human beings - who both happen to be men - have for each other. Esprix and others were jumping on people recently for using the term “lifestyle” to describe gays and lesbians. I wonder how they feel about the term “taking a dick in the ass”? I wonder if I’ll see any comments made about that one?

And how nice to characterize Mormons as, well as you put it, assholes, completely ignoring persons such as pepperlandgirl. I guess this is understandable, considering the many times you have posted of your hatred of several different religions.

Look - there are no flames or mis-statements in what I just said. Am I not correct?

44

Ah! This explains the laws in Utah forbiding sterile couples from getting married!

Believe it or not, homosexuals can, indeed, have children. They just need to find a willing person of the opposite sex. And even if they adopt children, they’re still raising family. If you think about it, we’re all family — you just have to go far back enough. Something Evolutionists and Creationists both agree on!

Bringing more love into the world is far, far more important to God than doinking someone of the opposite sex.

45

Anth, I don’t presume to speak for Satan, but I believe his “taking it up the ass” line was in reference to Squid’s line above,

Am I right, Brian?

And all, I think the irritation PLg is feeling is from the automatic lumping of all Mormons together. Just because some Saints are anti-gay fuckwads does not in any way mean they all are. What say we rise above the “hang all the XXXX” menatality, regardless of who XXXX might be, and behave like grownups, mkay?

46

Thank you Andros.
You are 100% correct.

47

Thank you, Andros. You beat me to it, and a lot more nicely than I would have.

Anth, I like and respect you, but don’t let your eagerness in defending your friend and your homosexuality put words in people’s mouths that were obviously not intended. Had you read the thread carefully before getting emotional, you would have realized that Satan’s comments were meant as a direct rebuttal of what Squid Vicious and Squidwife have said in here. And I’d imagine that, coarseness of the language aside, you’d agree with every damn word of what he intended.

And as for your second point, Andros, PLG’s first post in that thread does not make that clear. By her talking about “the level of pure ignorance in this thread,” it makes us seem as if we are unclear on offical Mormon doctrine and concepts. In reality, Mormons think it’s wrong and bad to be gay, for the reasons PLG cited later. And Mormons, by definition of what it means to follow the LDS church, either believe in this, or are going against their church doctrine by not believing it. And if it’s the latter, they’d best be prepared to reconcile this, both to themselves and those who are offended and hurt by the proclamations of the religion they accept.

Even when PLG and others say “It’s God’s place to judge, not mine,” or some such, inherent in that statement is the fact that God WILL judge, and will find these people lacking. Whether or not the person who says this loves the one who is judged is irrelevant. The equilibrium is still upset, because a comment like that always implies that you, by virtue of being straight, will always have a leg up in the whole holy judgment thing. You can always repent of your sins, while a homosexual’s “sins” cannot be changed. One of these days, I hope that PLG’s compassion will win, and she will determine that any God worth worshipping would not “judge” people for the way He supposedly created them to be.

PLG and other Mormons who “love” homosexuals–do you think that being gay is a choice? If not, how can you possibly worship a God who will punish those you love for a quality that was with them from the day they were born? And if so, do you think that every gay and lesbian person on this board is lying when they say they’ve always felt same-sex attractions?

48

PLG, I have quite a lot of respect for you, and Una, your willingness to take on the world in her behalf continues to impress me.

But some cold hard facts. While individual LDS members may often be everything you say (and the handful I’ve known for the most part do fall into that category), the CoJCoLDS has in fact been active to legislate against gays, most recently in the Knight Initiative in California. There are links all over GD on that one, if you dig back a few months.

I will defend any gay person’s right to live his life untrammelled by anybody else’s prejudices. And I will defend any religious person (of any religion) 's right to live by the rules of his or her faith, without getting put down by others. Where I draw the line is when either side in any such argument begins condemning the other for living by its own rules.

And here (not in this thread, but in the topic thereof) the CoJCoLDS, more or less, started it. Granted that the journalist, for a gay publication, may not have painted the picture purely objectively. But is there anyone, anywhere, who had any reason to care what the CoJCoLDS thinks about gay sex who was surprised to hear this pronouncement? I think the issue was done to death already.

By the way, Esprix, that last paragraph was not intended to put you down. I think the right of self-defense applies when someone begins to speak out against a group to which you belong, and for you to publicize that is within bounds.

Una, as a partisan, more or less, of both sides, would you agree that the above is a balanced judgment of the situation? And if so, would you assist in damping the fires in this thread?

49

Um, a clarification. In my 2nd paragraph above, “active to legislate against gays” does not mean “passing canon law against homosexuality in their own church” – which, if a bit judgmental, is at least defensible.

It means attempting to influence the government to act against gays. By passing laws, by court decisions, by referendums like the Knight Initiative.

50

Drain Bead, I believe God judges everybody; hetero or homo, sinners or saints. Esprix is probably a better person, all around, than I am. David B is probably a better person, all around, than I am. Satan is probably a better person, all around, than I am. But we are all going to be judged based on our own merits, regardless of sexual preferance. That’s the whole concept of “Judgement Day”. So, I’m going to be judged on Judgement Day, Esprix is going to be judged, you are going to be judged, Polycarp is going to be judged, Una is going to be judged…you see? If people are so sensitive that “God will judge you, it’s not my place” that they automatically take offense, than, well, they are extremely ego-tistical, IMHO. God judges everybody, not just gay people.

I don’t persume to even begin to understand who God will punish, and why He will punish them. It’s none of my business, and quite frankly, does not apply to my own salvation. I do believe that God is all loving, just and fair, and I have extreme faith that He will take care of each person, based on that person’s works, faiths, and heart. I don’t believe in a God who will punish someone for being born gay. And I don’t believe in a God who will cast someone to hell for not being the right denomination of Christian. And I don’t believe in a God that would have me judge anybody based on any aspect of their lives.
“Judge not, lest ye be judged”
“He who is without sin may cast the first stone”
“Vegence is mine.”
I take these lesson seriously.
So I guess in answer to your question Drain Bead, I just don’t care. A homosexual’s salvation does not affect my own. Polycarp’s does not affect me. Yours does not affect me. The only person I have to worry about is myself. Of course, in the future when I have children, I will be worried about raising them to be fine, up-standing, loving, responsible citizens. But in the mean time, to each his own. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, it’s none of my business, it’s God’s. End of story.

51

I did read the entire thread, BTW. Which is more than I can say often for people who post to my threads. But even reading them again, the statement as posted does not seem to tie to other posts directly, any sarcasm intended is not obvious to me, and it is bizarre-sounding at best. Also note I did not call Satan names, and I did not call him inattentive or stupid. My post was not emotional at all, in fact when I write emotional posts you will know it. Just search for the keywords “Anthracite”, “Motherfucker”, “ass-goblin”, etc. and you will find posts written when I am “emotional”.

Oh yes, and I have already discovered here that when dealing with known firebrands that it is dangerous to try and “defend a friend”. But if one does not do so anyways, even when that person will now hound you across the board(s), through chat, and via e-mail, then you are not worthy of being their friend.

It was completely unclear as to whether the remark was meant to be a chide at Mormons and gays, or something else. I say “something else” because even re-reading it it still makes little sense to me to say it in that way, with that language. I mean, it looks to me that he’s saying that being a Mormon is being an asshole for the rest of one’s life. What is ambiguous about that? Let’s examine the full, not out-of-context quote again:

What is ambiguous about this statement? I know I’m not considered to be too swift here, and not in on a lot of inside jokes since I don’t get asked to play in everyone’s Online Reindeer Games.

Drain, because you are a good person who has excellent references I will take your word only for it that it was meant to be innocuous, or was in some way mocking a previous post, or whatever. I don’t see it, and I don’t care anymore, since obviously it’s just because I’m too stupid, inattentive, or emotional. Whatever, I’ve been called a whole lot worse. But please at least don’t accuse me of having just jumped in without reading the post - that’s a pretty demeaning thing to say to me.

But like I said - I will trust your judgement, and believe you, and have nothing more to say on this issue. Not that it would matter anyways.

52

Yes, I will agree with you. And I will dampen the fires by not posting anymore, since it just doesn’t matter.

53

  1. Anthracite, I am going to assume that you are actually directing your venom to Squid Vicious, who is the poster who proposed the “choice” that I was commemnting on. As such, I’ll let him respond to your venomous and erroneous words.

  2. I was not calling pepperlandgirl an asshole. I was calling those particular mormons - and, even non-mormons who say things like “Although the LDS message may have been more appealing than a dick in the ass but what the hell” assholes.

  3. I have treated pepperlandgirl with respect, I think. I disagreed with her tactics and tone, and I said so, but I’d like to think I was not disrespectful about it.

  4. I have not yet mentioned that I love andros, so please allow me to do so. I also wonder why, if his sentiment that nobody should be doing any hanging would have been the same if it was only brought up in the OP and not ridiculed ironically by adam yax.

  5. (And this is the personal part): Peperlandgirl, I have seen you get quite upset at those who mock your religion. At the same time, I have seen you take on those who would give Anthracite (and presumably, your other gay and lesbian friends here and elsewhere) shit for their sexual orientation.

With all due respect, this puts you in between a rock and a hard place. LDS doctrine mandates a certain view of homosexuals. The leaders of this church have been very vocal about this, and also active legislatively trying to make homosexuals have less freedoms and rights than you have. I wonder what Anthracite thinks of their tactics - I’ll bet not highly.

Diane mentioned other Christians not being brought up here. Well, other Christians are not necessarily part of a sect that has been lobbying for some of the so-called “pro-family” legislation. Episcopalians (sp) and Methodists are Christians which are more liberal and certainly not trying to make laws against gay marriages and the like. To be sure, Polycarp is a Christian, but if a leader in his church were to do some of the things that Mormon leaders consider it their duty to do, I’ll bet he’d depart quicker than you can say “Uniterian.”

Anyway, to me you have a choice to make. You can either be part of a religion where you accept your friends as equals to you in heart, mind and sprit, or you can be a part of a religion that actively says that the people you call friends are second class citizens in the eyes of your God and by extension, the law.

Of course, you are free to continue to get upset whenever someone who is “ignorant” seemingly bashes your religion or your friends, but the irony is that you wind up really putting your friends in a bind.

I mean, your friend Anthracite thought she was bashing me, when in fact she was bashing someone on “your” side, because I was using those words from someone who belongs to the same religion!

As such, because of your mixed allegiances here, your friend, who you often defend, was slamming the principles that you in essense defend.

I’m not saying your friends have to agree with everything you say, but there are fundamental things which don’t allow me to be friendly with someone. Having my God tell me they are second class would be one of them.

I know you’re young, and I know that this is a lot of shit. But you really should examine what you honestly believe in your heart before you are so quick to get indignant against those who might very well be on your side all along.

Feel free to rip apart my premise at your leasure…

Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, five days, 2 hours, 50 minutes and 16 seconds.
7524 cigarettes not smoked, saving $940.59.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 0 minutes.

I slept with a moderator!*

54

You, of all people, playing the victim? OMIGOD!

Let’s examine what I wrote, and see my “venom” :rolleyes: and my “venemous” words. Also, we will see my “bashing” of Satan here too!

OK…I trying to find the “venom” here. Seeing as you are a known firebrand capable of attacking people with posts for days that contain flames of biblical proportions (real fire and brimstone Old Testament stuff, not that wimpy New Testament crap) your comments are actually either intended to be facetious, or are plainly bizarre.

But no! Let’s deconstruct my post, line-by-line. Oh yes, Binkley, lets!

OK…I’m not seeing any venom or bashing here…I’m seeing a question as to the characterization of being gay as “taking a dick in the ass”. I don’t see any venom or poor, defenseless Satan bashing here…

This refers, of course, to the “lifestyle” controversy. And I don’t see venom or poor old Satan bashing here either. Surely it’s coming up soon…

Well, after reading what Drain Bead has to say, and taking her word for it, this is obviously a mistake I made (that’s right, unlike some, I call attention to my own mistakes as well), as you did not intend to mean this. Of course, I only have her word for that, but that is enough for me for I believe her. What is venomous about saying that characterizing all Mormons as assholes is wrong? Did I just commit a reverse hate-crime or something? Reverse hate-crime!!!

But please - we must continue. Oh yes.

OK…this, finally, must be the “venom of Anthracite”, where she mortally wounded the 4800+ post Satan who certainly pulls no punches in flaming others for even the slightest reasons.

This last quote, of course, is in reference to your recent thread of “Get off my plane, mind-melded Fundie zealots”. If you want to see some real venom and bashing, I suggest you look in there. Oh wait…you made that thread, didn’t you?

But, for the sake of completeness, let’s examine my last line:

Here is where my true “venom” and “Satan bashing” is revealed. Not since Serlin has such a gratuitous display of sick, intolerant, hate-speach been posted on the board directed towards another poster.

To re-cap - how dare you, of all people, try to play the victim of venom and bashing?

It does not matter, as I told the very well-spoken and correct Drain Bead. I would not have even have come back except for receiving an IM that you had posted.

I can’t wait to discover now just how hateful this post really was. I feel like Elaine, after stealing the Jesus Fish. :smiley:

55

I wish I could delete all my posts to this thread. I fucking quit. I’ve had it.

56

I still wonder if Squid is going to accept your apology…

57

Satan, I can not give you satisfactory answers to the questions you posted. I just can’t. My emotions on religion, homosexuals, my friends, my enemys, everything, are so wrapped up and complicated. But since I have no intent on ever hurting my friends, especially Anthracite, and I have no intent of ever leaving the CoJCoLDS, because I do have a strong testimony of it, I have to find a happy medium. I’ve already stated my happy medium. “I don’t care.”
I have to do many things to reach the highest degree of Heaven. First Baptized (done) second, partake of the Sacrement every Sunday (kinda sorta), third, receive blessings from the Temple (Not old enough yet), fourth, get married in the Temple (Soon, I hope), fifth, raise a strong family (I’d like to), and finally, stay faithful all my life, and love and respect my fellow man.
In that list of things I should do, does it say anything about other people? Other than to love and respect them? No, it does not. That is why I don’t see a conflict between my religion and my friends.
Voting on the Knight Initiave, or not voting, does not make the difference between Eternal Salvation, and Eternal Damnation. Hell, very few things outside of the list makes a difference. (Just so you know, partaking of the Sacrement every week is the same as repenting for your sins every week. We’re never perfect, no one is ever perfect, but we try.)

58

Is that because you finally saw this, posted by Squid Vicious?

I wasn’t accusing you of not reading Satan’s post. I was accusing you of not reading the above quote, which was what Satan’s post was meant to be in reply to. Andros pointed this out as well, but I don’t see you replying to HIM anywhere in this thread, so I can only assume that you haven’t seen that too.

And as for me calling you “emotional,” well, I’ve often seen you post things without thinking and then publicly wish that you hadn’t said it. Seems to me as if you get emotional, post without thinking or carefully choosing your words, and then regret it. In fact, you’ve done it in this thread now. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being emotional and wanting to defend yourself or your friends when you think you’ve been wronged. The problem is jumping to conclusions and thinking you’ve been wronged, when in fact nothing of the sort has happened. Not everyone here is on a personal vendetta against you, Anthracite.

In fact, I think I’m going to start a new thread…

59

So second-class citizens exist in both life AND death?

What a scary, horrifying thought.

60

Sorry to inject this MPSIMS moment, but LTNS, Sara!

Good to see you posting again!