In my view, Mormons get bashed a lot (in general, not just on this message board) because they are a large, fast-growing segmant of the population and they have strange (to outsiders) and poorly understood views. I’ve heard that Mormons are the fastest growing segment of Christianity today (Cringe. I’m an evangelical Christian, I class mormons with Jehovah’s Witness and various other groups as cults. Cults being LOOSELY defined as “Christianity with a twist.”) Most people (myself included) know little or nothing about what Mormons actually believe or how they practice their religion. Put together an assemblage of people striving to “stomp out ignorance” add a few actual Mormons, and it is only a matter of time before someone asks something relating to mormonism. And, as with most issues relating to religion, it doesn’t take much to convert a casual statement of one person’s beliefs into a blanket attack.
Archimedes: bluebird’s “I hate mormons” is not a casual statement; it was, and remains, a bigoted and intolerant remark. I think my posting above addressed that remark and his others point-by-point.
Monty,
My post was meant to be a reply to jodih’s question on why mormons seem to be bashed so much on this message board. I’ll admit to not having read much of what either bluebird or you posted on the subject of hating mormons. The comments made by bluebird were NOT what I was referring to when I mentioned casual comments. The original post on this thread is much more along the lines of what I was referring to.
Back to the DNA (remember the DNA?).
We’re going to have to go back about 4 years,
but I recall reading in Time and Newsweek that DNA tests showed that WE’RE ALL related!
We’re just related to each other in different degrees.
The only reason I remember this is because of a little irony. The two races believed were most closely related–African and Aborigines–were actually the LEAST related to each other. The old thought was guided by skin color. DNA tests blew that up.
Doug, I agree with your statements, but the fact that you repeated some of what I had already said suggests that my comments were forgotten in the middle of all the mormon bashing.
I contend that any DNA study needs to have a reference and that without one, we cannot confirm the degree of such a relationship. Hey, if humans are on average 99.9% genetically identical, to find similarities between different races of humans is not that surprising.
“[He] beat his fist down upon the table and hurt his hand and became so
further enraged… that he beat his fist down upon the table even harder and
hurt his hand some more.” – Joseph Heller’s Catch-22
The February, 1999 issue of Discover magazine had an article on the still evolving thoughts about the settlement of the Americas. In general, the current thought is that instead of one period of immigration, there were various groups which cames at different times, although the details are still very, very fuzzy. According to this article, “Only four mtDNA lineages characterize over 95 percent of all Native American populations”. But it adds, “In the past few years a fifth mtDNA lineage, called X, has turned up in both living Native American groups and in prehistoric remains. Though variants of the first four mtDNA lineages have been found in Siberian, Mongolian, and Tibetan populations, the origins of the X lineage are downright mysterious. [snip] In fact, the first variant of X mtDNA was identified in Europeans. Schurr speculates the X lineage originated somewhere in Eurasia, with its carriers going their separate ways; some west in the old world, some east all the way to the new”.
I hope you settle the dna stuff.But back to Bluebird:
Supposing you are religious and believe the usual Christian things. Why would you believe this baptism after death would work? It seems you could only baptise a living person, if you believe baptism works or is necessary.
Your grandpa is another story, so let’s leave that out.
Speaking as someone with no belief in any deity or an afterlife, I can readily understand sunbear’s (and others’) view that getting upset about post-mortem Mormon baptism seems a little pointless. But I don’t see it that way at all.
I agree with much of SoxFan59’s calm and measured analysis, and I compliment him on his forbearance. But this issue goes beyond the pale…
What bothers me about this practice in the here and now is the unabashed arrogance and shocking hubris it entails on the part of the Mormon church and its members who participate in this calumny. The insolence and naked chutzpah of this “second-guessing” is deplorable. The “argument” that these rites somehow leave the decision to the deceased is just so much empty sophistry and is quite beside the point.
What these Mormons are implying is that they “know better” than everybody else and that your and your ancestors’ deepest life decisions were wrong. But not to worry, they say : “we’ll fix their mistakes!”
How dare they! What insufferable presumption!
The Mormons claim (with dubious justification, in my opinion) that they are Christians. I seem to recall from my youth something about “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, or words to that effect. One wonders how they would react to posthumous re-baptisms of their ancestors as Roman Catholics say, or Buddhists, or perhaps Satanists. Since they are the ones who believe in the validity of such rituals, I doubt they would accept the idea as blithely as they expect others to.
Many Mormons object to what they perceive as a lack of respect for their beliefs and traditions. Perhaps it would help if they were to show the rest of us the same respect.
Ambushed:
With one short posting (above), you’ve managed to show three things:
(1) Your arrogance and hubris far outweigh that of which you accuse others;
(2) You act on preconceived opinions; and
(3) A total inability to apply reason to this discussion.
This particular issue is headed for the BBQ Pit. Any further replies I have in response to prejudiced and bigoted statements on this issue will appear in that forum.
Monty:
You accuse me of arrogance and of “preconceived opinions”. You complain about my “total inability to apply reason to this discussion.”
Yet you provide no reasons to support these bald accusations.
Hmmm…
Really, I apologise for getting this topic off into mormon apologetics. The original question was interesting to me since I was under the impression that most scientists reject the concept of “race” Maybe I’m wrong–I read this a few years ago.
Anyway, I would like to respond once more to the topic of baptism for the dead. It’s really hard to argue with mormons. They have their own meanings for religious words and sometimes appear to redefine them at will–so now we have proxy baptism is equivalent to a prayer. What next–Holy communion is just a pack of nabs and a nehi grape? I came across a site that nicely explains to mormons what baptism is to a Christian. The site is http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/apolo.html. I am not a Catholic, but I’ll agree with their beliefs on Christian baptism vs. mormon baptism.
Sunbird, I guess it does seem that my grandfather’s annointment is another issue. To me it is the same since both issues represent the mormon church and its adherents disregard for the religious autonomy of others. You might note that the Jewish World Congress was so upset over the proxy baptism of Jews by mormons that they negiotiated with the mormon church to stop doing it in 1996. I want the mormon church to treat me and my family the way the treat the Jews. Simply to respect my beliefs and my ability to chose my own religion and have my memory respected.
I can understand why Monty and other mormons are so opposed to this idea. Their position in the mormon celestial kingdom depends on having as many ancestors as possible baptized by proxy. So, for an ambitious mormon who wants to go far in the afterlife–baptising the dead is a must!
Monty, I must confess you confused me to death over the they/them thing. I have absolutely no idea what you mean and I’m sure you will promptly infer that means I’m stupid. OK–I’ll consider the source.
I will say that the mormon church requires baptism for the dead and the mormon church adherents practice it. So, I am opposed to both the institution and its adherents as long as they continue to disregard the religious freedom of others.
Have an absolutely LOVELY day!
The source is you, bluebird. You said “they” when you referred to ONE person, according to you, disturbed your grandfather’s deathbed.
Answer this “Yes” or “No,” ambushed: Did you post the following statement:
If “Yes,” then my accusation is based on FACT; if “No,” then the accusation is against someone who phished your user ID and password.
Monty:
Yes, I made the statement in question. On what basis could a fair-minded person object to it?
Shall we break it down and analyze it? Let’s take the main statement excluding the parenthetical remark first. It’s a simple statement of fact: “The Mormons claim that they are Christians”. I’m sure you’ll agree there’s nothing controversial about this.
What about the part in parenthesis – “with dubious justification, in my opinion”. All this says is that in my personal opinion, the basis for that assertion is open to debate and is unsettled in my mind. Please note that I did not say that there was no justification; only that I felt it was “dubious”.
Naturally, to a Mormon believer such as yourself this question is not debatable. I understand this fully. But it is nevertheless also true that there are those such as myself who seriously question the theological reasoning behind the view that the LDS Church truly follows the core Christian traditions (as an agnostic, I can be somewhat more detached when it comes to such questions).
Therefore, your accusation was not based on “FACT” after all, but was merely an emotional (if perhaps understandable) reaction to the expression of my not-uninformed opinion.
Now I’d like to ask you to answer “Yes” or “No” to the question I posed earlier, but only after honest reflection: Would you honestly like it and accept it if your ancestors were posthumously re-baptized in some other faith – even one which your ancestors deeply reviled?
I can’t imagine anyone with strong beliefs answering “Yes” to this question, but if you are one of them, I would be delighted to hear your reasons.
Okay, ambushed, I’m game. Here you go:
One: Mormons say they worship Christ. That makes them Christians. They also believe the Christ they worship is the Christ of the New Testament. Maybe the LDS are wrong; maybe they’re not. The fact remains that they believe they worship Christ. That alone makes them Christians. Again, just because they’re not your particular “flavor” of Christianity, doesn’t make them not Christians. And since it’s a fact, it’s not open for debate. Perhaps we can agree that you consider the LDS to be “incredibly mistaken Christians?” Of course, I don’t believe they are, but hey that’s just me.
Two: would it bother me if some Satanist peformed a proxy baptism of my ancestor? No; for two reasons. The first reason is that I like to believe my ancestor would make the better choice :). The second reason is that, as my beliefs hold that only ordinances performed by someone actually holding the Priesthood have validity, I’d believe that the Satanist’s ceremony had no value or efficacy whatsoever.
Does this answer your question?
Monty, Bluebird, and Ambushed, could you guys take to the pit? This thread was originally supposed to discuss DNA, not Mormon bashing.
El Mariachi Loco even stated that he wanted “‘objective’ scientific evidence” in his original question.
“[He] beat his fist down upon the table and hurt his hand and became so
further enraged… that he beat his fist down upon the table even harder and
hurt his hand some more.” – Joseph Heller’s Catch-22
Chiarelli, Bruno. 1996. Race: A fallacious concept. International Journal
of Anthropology 10(2/3):97-105.
Keita, S. O. Y. and Kittles, Rick A. 1997. The persistence of racial thinking
and the myth of racial divergence. American Anthropologist 99(3):534-544.
Lahr, Marta Mirazon. 1995. Patterns of modern human diversification:
Implications for Amerindian origins. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology
38:163-198.
I came across these sites. They might be of interest. I don’t have access to them at this time, but thought someone who is really interested would find it useful.
Speaking of nonstandard Christian denominations, do you know what sect comes to your door and offers you pancakes?
The Jemima’s Witnesses.
(This joke brought to you by the “Hey, Lighten Up” Committee. And blatanly stolen from The Family Guy, so sue me.)