Most martial arts are mostly bullshit

In My Humble Opinion
21

Sparing, like shadowboxing, is good for what it does; it trains you to respond and be aware of your body position. You can learn a lot from light-contact/no-contact sparring, but you’re right; it doesn’t translate into what it’s like to punch and be punched. And nothing you do in the dojo is really going to give you a sense of what a real fight is like. So far as I know, no dojo comes with pool cues, beer bottles, and a gravel tarmac which the guy behind you is going to suddenly and without warning decide to tackle you down onto.

I’ll put money on the experienced streetfighter versus the virgin black belt anyday, especially if the black belt starts throwing above-the-waist spinning kicks and using animal forms. On the other hand, I’ve seen (and studied with) some guys in the dojo who knew their way around a bar fight; my best sensei was a short black guy, former Marine and retired Henderson, NV cop who started out boxing in the East St. Louis projects as a teenager and studied everything from Kenpo to savate. He was a fun guy, a crack shot, and a genuine bad motherf**ker. But that’s a fair rarity; there are also a lot of blowhards in ghees and black belts who wouldn’t last half a round with a real streetfighter.

Stranger

22

Not all, but some MA clubs have very little standards and overboard on the “lifestyle” and “discipline” of the art because the instructor cannot teach proper technique. In this regard, I partially agree with you.

True, but some people haven’t learned that and go into MA training with the idea that learning it will make them a baddass. Some learn what it truely means to be a martial artist and learn how to avoid fights, but unfortunatley some go through MA training having never learned how to avoid a fight.

Most MA sytles and don’t teach that. They teach that you should disable your opponent to the point of the threat level you are perceiving.

Example:
I’m at a bar and a drunk guy starts approaching me and yelling at me. He does not ever throw a punch, but is yelling and screaming at me. Do I have the right to break his knee and punch him in the face? No, becuase the threat level was not high enough to warrent that. Should it come to blows, I am ready.

Now if he started throwing punches at me and doesn’t stop, what is appropriate for my level of defense? I don’t want to kill the guy, and I don’t want to disable him for life either. I want him to stop punching me so I can get away. So I will use techniques to stop him from punching me, like knocking the wind out of him, hitting the pressure points, anything that will make him stop enough for me to get out, and I will continue doing that until he stops.

My response will match the threat level presented to me.

Not quite true in my experience. If I can learn a technique to the point where I can throw it 100% without thinking about it when I’m at full strength, then I should be able to throw it at say 60% when I’m injured. It sure beats throwing punches and kicks wrong and hurting myself even more. It still gives me an advantage over an untrained fighter.

If I hit him with the right combinations of moves to the proper areas, he will stop. If the guy still comes at me then I continue hitting him until he does stop. If I don’t hit him correctly, I continue hitting him until he stops. Again it depends on the level of threat presented to me. I don’t want to cripple the guy, I just want him to stop.

Those are professional fighters, not normal people like you and I. They train all the time because that is their career. Now I’m not in the best of shape physically, but I am in better shape than I used to be before MA training and I am much better at defending myself by training 3 times per week than if I never did any training. Before MA training, my reflexes were slow, and if I were to hit anything, it would hurt my hand. Since MA training I know how to punch properly without hurting myself plus I know the limits of what I can take. I don’t make any claims on whether or not I can predict the outcome of any fight presented to me, but I do know that I have a greater chance of getting out of it uninjured or at least alive because of the skills I have learned.

In my experience, Skilled will tend beat crazy. Crazy people don’t think. They just come at you. Their only advantage is the fear they hope their opponent will have when they attack them. Crazy people are all over the place. It might take 5 or 6 hits from a crazy person before it does any real damage to their opponent. Take a skilled martial artist and each and every hit would be targeted to specifc points on the body to properly disable their opponent. They are thinking througout the fight and using everything they can to their advantage.

Again, I’m not saying that I can beat anyone I come across. There is always somone who will be faster, or more skilled that myself, but with my training, I have a greater advantage of coming out of a fight uninjured, or alive.

23

Christ, people, sparring. I don’t know anything about martial arts except that I’m considering taking some akido to get out of the house, but I know that sparing won’t get me far in a bar fight.

24

The avoiding fights thing is so they don’t turn into a bully academy. I thought this was obvious. They want you to learn to defend yourself and fight when it’s necessary, not be some sort of Cobra Kai prick.

‘All the perfect technique goes out the window when you’re punched in the face’ because you just failed to block or avoid it.

Boxing is limited in its application compared to martial arts, unless your opponent is doing the same thing, or you’re really fit. You don’t see boxers trying to sweep or throw their opponents. Go play Street Fighter or something. Balrog sucks.

25

It also, according to Mr. Lissar, gets you used to being hit, if you’ve done hard sparring, meaning, “sparring with a fair amount of force”, meaning, “sometimes breaking bones”. So he’s been punched in the face, and is less likely to panic if someone does it in a fight, because it’s not an unfamiliar sensation.

Does it train you to be a badass? No, I don’t think so. Does it mean that if someone rushes you, you can throw them? Probably. Pin them? Also probably. Dodge bullets and protect you against the guy with a phaser? No, of course not.

26

I’ll poke my snoot into this one if that’s OK…

Said it before in some of the “X vs. Y” threads, IMHO one of the most important things in learning a martial art, from the perspective of being able to apply it in a real-life situation, is lots of practice applying the techniques against a resisting opponent.

In my (admittedly limited) judo and BJJ training, randori (full speed/full contact matwork) was extremely valuable. Learning a throw or choke is simple when your opponent is letting you do it, actually performing that move on someone who is actively resisting it is an entirely different kettle of fish.

That experience is not like a no-holds-barred street brawl but it’s a big step up from doing forms and sets and no-contact sparring. Your actual ability to defend yourself will be much better if you spend a lot of time practicing while the other person is grabbing, unbalancing, throwing, choking, hitting or simply trying to avoid you.

For a striking-oriented art, working out with pads and actually thumping on each other (so you get used to hitting and being hit while applying your techniques) is the equivalent.

As you said in your OP, fine technique tends to go out the window when you get whapped in the face, so practicing against someone who is trying to whap you will (a) lessen the shock thus you’re less likely to lose your cool when it’s for real and (b) let you figure out really fast what works in a perfect situation vs. what works when the opponent isn’t letting you do what you want.

27

Aikido. You’ve Gaudered yourself, like so many before you.

28

This thread reminds me of a recent news article from Germany, about a 70 year old guy who successfully fought off four street thugs trying to rob him.

link

So, on this subject, would the unarmed combat training given by the armed forces count as a Martial Art? I’d presume that those things are fairly effective if the military hasn’t stopped using them by now. The fellow in the linked article had SAS training during World War II.

29

By definition, I should think.

30

Your only real choice: Krav Maga

31

Referred to in the movie Hebrew Hammer as “The Ancient Art of Jew-Do” :smiley:

32

The answer to all these debates took place in 1993 when the Gracie family staged the first Ultimate Fighting Championship and invited everyone from all styles to a no-holds-barred contest. People showed up representing everything from Tae Kwon Do to streetfighting to Sumo Wrestling and almost all of them got beat down in an embarassing fashion which should have discredited their pseudo-martial arts once and for all.

The effective style proved to be Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. Later, wrestlers began to dominate the sport, and then kickboxers. To even compete now, you have to be extremely well versed in all 3 disciplines.

Most martial arts schools are black belt-factories designed to capitalize on America’s fascination with karate movies.

Confidence? Check
Conditioning? In a good school, check
Actual fighting skill, beyond what confidence and conditioning give you? Hell no

I’ve sparred (wrestled, slap-boxed, horseplayed) with lots of friends with extensive martial arts training and if I’m bigger than them I generally beat them. Period. I had a close female friend who had a whole seperate room to keep all of her trophies and awards and black-belts in and she couldn’t even execute a basic Judo throw on me, not even when she would catch me off guard (she tried often.)

And WhyNot - come now with that story of yours. The real world fact is that a 9 year old simply does not have the strength or momentum to bring down a healthy, 250lb adult with strikes. My nephew is a large 9 year old and I’m nowhere near 250lbs but I can take everything he has in multiple punches and kicks and not budge an inch (yes, we have sparred and I tell him not to hold back.) I cannot conceive of a scenario in which he could put me on the ground with tears in my eyes, no matter how much martial arts training he had. Especially not if I was expecting it. Maybe if I was sleeping and he had a baseball bat.

33

Ouch. In my defense, it was my third mojito.

34

If it ain’t worth killing over, run…

If it is, from behind with a pair of .45’s works well.

You wanna play fair, get in a ring and have a referee.

35

If he is that uncontrolled at a party, then you need to worry because society will have him behind bars before he is 14.

If he did that to me and you did not discipline him to my satisfaction then and there, I would own you and all you have.

Putting a hand on a shoulder is not an attack. You have witnesses that he was attacking or touch inappropriately? You better.

And if it was my 9 year old that he did it to, …

Sounds like a bully out of control to me.

36

One difference between the UFC and the street. In the UFC, if you take someone to the ground and apply a submission hold, you don’t have his buddies kicking you in the head while your arms are tied up.

Tying up your entire body and immobilizing yourself with your opponent works great if you’re in a wrestling match. On the street, you might want to consider trying to stay mobile.

37

:rolleyes:

I think we outlawed that sort of thing in this country over a hundred years ago.

38

My fundamental criticism with the “MA is bullshit” lobby is that they inevitable try to evaluate it or quantify it based on 1 vs 1 Ultimate Fighting events, or by building strawman arguments like “A 9 year old girl would never win against a Chicago Bears offensive lineman, therefore aikido sucks!”

MA gives you defensive and offensive techniques and tools to add to your ability to respond when your safety is threatened. It isn’t just about octagon matches.

Some things that MA training has helped me with in the real world:

–Defending myself against a drunk guy with a knife when confronted in a park. There was no fight, but my bearing and willingness to defend myself backed the guy down.

–Safely disarmed a hysterical angry drunk girl at a party who was trying to stab herself and others with a butchers knife.

–Learned how to fall and roll without injury, and used falling techniques in snowboarding and soccer that otherwise would have left me with serious injuries.

–Blocked a couple of punches from some guy at a punk show who just wanted to pummel someone randomly, he seemed surprised and paused, at which time the bouncers piled on him.

So I consider my art and training to be effective, even though I would still likely get my ass kicked by a Chicago Bears offensive lineman.

39

Oh, another story, though of course the plural of “Anecdote” isn’t “Data”, a fellow I met in the SCA mentioned that one of his friends, a longtime SCA Rapier fighter, is a prison security guard. This guy’s friend claimed that 10 years of Rapier fighting helped hone his reflexes such that he was able to deal with two prisoners that tried to gang up on him. Mind you, the guy was apparently built like Zangief, and he was “On Guard” as a necessary part of his job, so it’s probably not the same situation that I would have while walking home from the pub or anything.

40

GargoyleWB, you’re right to great extent and I believe that the people who argue against MA are right to a great extent as well.

Confidence and conditioning give you a huge edge in a fight against the average person. This is where MA helps. What people who argue against it are frustrated with, however, is the people who say “My XMA is invincible and the best MA there is and I can take out Chicago Bears offensive linemen with it.” That is a sales tactic used by people who run black belt factories to try to get more people to sign up.

A poster in this very thread said that his 9 year old took out a 250lb ex-Marine. No Martial Art is going to teach you how to do that, plain and simple. It was either A) a freakish stroke of luck that could never be duplicated for the remainer of the lifetime of this universe (unlikely) B) there is something WhyNot is not telling us (the guy was on crutches, etc.) or C) It didn’t happen.