I thought so at first too. And the number “Oh! is there not one maiden breast?” from The Pirates of Penzance jumped to mind as really sexist.
Of course, as a Gilbert & Sullivan work I have trouble figuring out if the sexism was intended as satire or not…
You’re right, it is a matter of usage. And there’s a big difference between “woman, go make me a sandwich” and “woman, you are the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen”. The point being, calling a woman “woman” isn’t inherently or automatically sexist, as your comments seem to imply.
If my wife said “Male, go outside and clean the garage because that’s all you’re good for”, then yes, it would be offensive. But if she said “Male, come over here and f*ck me, dammit!”, I wouldn’t be offended at all.
It’s easy to interpret the song in light of the entire Gary Puckett catalog. It starts with his being tempted in Young Girl. He has no self-control, which is obvious in Lady Willpower, where it’s the girl who’s holding out. She finally caves in This Girl Is a Woman Now. The whole sordid affair eventually falls apart in Woman Woman, when she realizes she can do better than him.
Nope, never said that. I said “lover” is gross. But again, that’s probably because I’m not in my 60s. Similarly, I would never say “make love” (also gross), but I don’t think it’s sexist at all.
Because no female performer has ever sang a “shut up and let’s get to it!” song? Like this one? Or perhaps this one?:dubious:
Also there’s a difference between a song that’s sung in character, and the song itself being sexist. Every other folk song is about a guy who kills a fair maiden with a silver dagger, are those songs endorsing murderous jealousy? “Run for Your Life” is clearly a song sung in character, it’s not John Lennon sending a message to Cynthia.
And if calling someone “woman” or “lady” or “baby” or “girl” in a song is sexist, well, I guess we disagree on what sexism is.
Most sexist song I can think of off the top of my head, in a runaway lead: “Bitches Ain’t Shit” by Dr Dre who has made hundreds of millions of dollars. Here’s the Ben Folds version: Ben Folds - Bitches Aint Shit - YouTube
Heh, I got a major laugh when “shut up and drive” was played for its ostensible meaning in the kiddie move Wreck-it Ralph I was seeing with my son - in the context of the movie, literally, about driving (a car). 
Pretty clear that wasn’t the original intent of the song … 
Oh I agree. Someone else brought up Gary and I was only commenting on the skeeve factor. I find a lot of the lyrics quoted here tasteless and juvenile, but not sexist.
These are songs depicting sexual jealously. Jealousy is an unpleasant and even deplorable emotion, but men and women alike are subject to it, and it has very little to do with sexism. Jealousy is an attitude towards specific individuals who are, or have been, one’s sexual partner. Sexism is a pervasive attitude towards the opposite sex in general. It may be the case that people who are sexist are a little more likely than others to become jealous, but I am pretty confident that any such correlation is very weak.
“Let you down and leave you flat” is not threatening violence. It means he is going to dump her, leaving her emotionally devastated.
“Run for Your Life” does get nasty enough that (even though most of the nastiness is clearly hyperbole) I think it is fair to characterize it is as a sexist song. However, that is one song out of the The Beatles large oeuvre, and one John was later at pains to repudiate. It is also probably correct to interpret it as sung “in character” rather than expressing the singer actual attitudes. It is very, very far from sufficient justification for characterizing The Beatles in general, despite the fact that they were working in an era before anybody really had a concept of sexism, or that it was wrong, as “absolute kings of sexist assholes”.
And here you are just misinterpreting and twisting the meaning of the song completely. He is saying that if they had an argument and see left him, he would go to find her, and back down, and apologize (the line is actually “I’d admit that I was wrong”). By implication, because he believes their relationship is so worthwhile, he would back down in order to keep them together, even if he actually believed himself to have been in the right. There is nothing sexist here at all. It is more a matter of a man humbling himself to please a woman, deferring to her (though it is all hypothetical anyway, and he doesn’t think its going to be necessary).
As I have said before in this thread, if you want real sexism from the “greats” of that era, don’t look to The Beatles, look to The Rolling Stones. There you will find an abundance of real sexism, real contempt for women, women as a whole, not just individual women, and sometimes taken to quite an extreme of violent imagery.
njtt, I couldn’t disagree more. First off, even the title of “You Can’t Do That” is kind of sexist. It’s a guy telling his girlfriend what she can’t do, specifically he tells her she can’t talk to other men. That’s pretty controlling and distasteful. Same with “You Like Me Too Much”. All three of my examples have the same underlying theme: You can’t leave because I own you.
Geez, but there are some real prudes in this thread.
I haven’t been here long, but this is probably one of the least “sexist” message boards I’ve ever read. Take that how you will. Frankly, some of the reaches to find sexism in everything that merely expresses male sexual interest is almost bordering on that whole “all sex involving a penis is rape” brand of “feminism.”
Maybe it’s sexist to say that men can’t have boundaries in relationships and clearly express them to their romantic partners. I just interpret that as he’s not going to put up with a cheater, and if he catches her in a situation that clearly shows she is trying to get with another guy, he’s not going to put up with it and will dump her. It’s also a sexist double-standard that benefits women when they are given the benefit of the doubt when they are just “talking” while trying fuck another guy and that the men who don’t want them engaging in a mating dance with another guy are “controlling” for wanting sexual fidelity in their relationship. Maybe it would be better and less sexist to say “I don’t care if you fuck that guy, just don’t bring him around my arena.”
Meh. I think calling the Beatles the most sexist successful musical act of all time is waaaaay off. Sure, some of their lyrics are less than stellar (although the worst of the lot, “Run For Your Life,” is a song they regretted quite a lot later on, and the others you mentioned don’t strike me as particularly bad, depending on how you interpret “leave you flat”), but they’re not even close to the worst. A post upthread mentioned Dr. Dre, which I think is getting closer to the mark - in modern(ish) times, popular songs have been “allowed” to be much more graphic and violent than way back when. Even in the 60s, though, the Beatles weren’t unusually nasty - the Stones were always far more misogynistic.
With all that said, I have a slightly different concept of sexism than what’s being used here - although violence often is seen with it, at its base it’s about thinking of women as inferior to men, only fit for housework, etc. Using that definition, one of the most sexist Beatles song isn’t violent or sexual in the least - “Honey Pie” is all about wanting a woman to abandon her blossoming career to “be where you belong.” Not exactly a hard-rocking, edgy song, though.
AC/DC with Bon Scott was leering and slightly threatening, but he had a little nuance and humor with the sexist lyrics. Bon Scott seemed to hint that his boasts should not be taken too seriously, and was a little self-effacing in songs like “Shot Down in Flames.” Brian Johnson-era AC/DC, on the other hand, depicts sex so cartoonishly, its really not worth interpreting too deeply.
He wants a blowjob, she wants a backstage pass, they both have fun and get what they want. No disrespect involved, unless you think sex is fundamentally demeaning. Which, from your posts, I strongly suspect you do.
Woman have been giving musicians they admire sexual favours since the dawn of time. So have men, sometimes, although for various reasons far less often. There’s nothing sexist about it, or about writing a song about it.
It’s only sexist if it suggests a different standard for men and women. There’s nothing in Motley Crue’s music that suggests that they have any problem with being seen as sex objects by women, or that they would have a problem with a man trading cunnilingus for access. You may think it’s unpleasant or immoral, that’s a valid opinion, but there’s no reason to assume sexism. Just hedonism.
So you claim loudly and repeatedly that “many of the hard rock songs mentioned in this thread … treat the woman as an object that exists solely for the male’s pleasure”.
And when asked for evidence of those strident claims, you use a song that has never been mentioned in this thread.
:rolleyes:
:eek:
So any time that man describes the pleasure he gets form sex, that is inherently sexist.
I have to go with the consensus opinion here. You have no idea what sexist means. I suggest you get a dictionary.
A man is allowed to describe a past sexual event from his perspective. That is not in any conceivable manner sexist. You and a handful of the most radical lunatic feminsists of the “all men are rapists” stripe are the only people on the planet who believe such a thing. You are theonly ones who could believe such a thing.
Please provide a single line from any of the AC/DC songs quoted in this thread that suggest that the singer believe that sex is all about their pleasure.
You are projecting here. And projecting really heavily. A man describing what he felt during a sexual encounter is just that, a description of personal sensation. It’s not an indication that he only ever thinks about what he feels.
Once again, only you a handful of radical lunatic feminists could possibly believe that simply describing male sexual pleasure is indicative of a lack of consideration of female sexual pleasure.
There is nothing disparaging in their. It’s an honest description that acknowledges that his lover does not have the face and figure of a supermodel.
Can you please explain to us how that is disparaging?
50% of women are below average in appearance. Describing them in that manner is not sexist, it’s honest. A man saying that a woman is below average in appearance but she has other desirable traits is also not sexist.
Are you saying that any description of a woman doesn’t describe her as looking like a supermodel, or it is disparaging? That a man can not honestly describe a woman as being slightly above average in appearance without it being disparaging?
I am seeing some seriously warped and sexist attitudes in this thread. But they are all coming for you. The idea that a woman is being disparaged if she is described as not being a supermodel is just too sexist for words.
Nobody described him as a gentleman. In fact my description of it was “tasteless”. So lets cut the strawmen, mmkay?
First off, the woman in the song is never at any point described as ugly. She is described as not being equivalent to the epitome of facial and physical beauty in our society. Nothing more. Your idea seems to be that any man has describe any woman as being a classical beauty with the body of a playboy model. And any man who doesn’t lie about the 99% of women who do not meet that standard is sexist.
If that isn’t your position, then can you please explain how describing a woman as not living up to the highest ideals of female beauty is sexist.
I say once again, your attitude here appears to be more sexist than anything in the songs. You seem to be saying that if 99% of women are described honestly, that they will take that as disparaging because their looks are the only thing about them that matters.
Secondly, can you please explain to use how saying that a woman great sexual technique is exist.
Because I’m sure we are all dying to here you explain how it’s somehow offensive to a woman to say that she is not one of the most beautiful women in the world, and she is a fantastic and thoughtful lover.
You seem to be saying that any admission that a woman can be a good lover is somehow offensive. But you wouldn’t be saying such an incredibly sexist thing. Now would you?
Here, let me quote you: “the fact that a song is about the male’s pleasure exclusively seems pretty sexist to me”.
IOW any man writing about what is important to his sexual experiences is immediately sexist because he doesn’t write about what is important to his partner as well. At least according to you.
So can you now please just admit that this is what you said?
Just admit that you said that any man writing about what his sexual experiences is immediately sexist because the song he writes is about the male’s pleasure exclusively.
So I ask once again: provide a single line from a single song quoted prior to your post 55, that suggests that the woman exists song as nothing but a receptacle for his dick.
I’m not quite sure what your position is. It seems amazingly prudish, misandrist and patronising to women.
You say that describing a woman honestly as anything less than a masterpeice oil painting or supermodel is sexist.
You say that describing a woman as having great sexual technique is sexist.
You say that an man who writes a perfectly accurate description of his physical sensations during sex is sexist.
You say that any man who calls his partner woman is sexist.
I’m not sure at this stage exactly what you are against. Honesty by men and implementation of sexuality by women it seems.
But you sure don’t seem to understand what sexism is.
Do you think it could be that whole “fighting ignorance” thing? Or did you forget what message board you were posting on?
When someone posts something as ignorant as “if a song written by a male is about the male’s pleasure exclusively makes, that makes it sexist” you don’t really think they’re gonna get an easy ride on these boards do you?
No, that can’t be it. Most men don’t; post statements as ignorant and sexist as “Any honest description of 99% of women is disparaging” and “any time a man describes his experience of sex, that’s sexist”. So it can’t be just the way men are.
What about What’s Next to the Moon, AC/DC’s ode to cartoon style domestic violence?
*Well I tied my baby to the railroad track
cannonball down the line
Engineer wishing he was home in bed
thinking about Casey Jones
Wide Eyed woman half a mile ahead
thinking about broken bones
*
and from the same song:
*All right officer I confess
didn’t mean to hurt that woman of mine
it was a heart attack
*
Kiss would have to fit the bill at least as well as Led Zep or the Stones.
What about it? Why are you directing this question at me?
I have a lot of old Jazz loaded on my ipod. One of the songs I came across is Ray Charles (I think) singing about how his woman knows her place (in the home)