IIRC, a more appropriate choice in Shampoo-Banana would be the Boneyard Creek.
Having read the news-gazette article (thanks DDG), I would go with AerynSun’s final paragraph. The only justification seems to have been that the kid was embarressed and ashamed by it. So the mother shouldn’t have done it. But should judges take away the kids of anyone whose parenting decisions they disagree with? When would this end?
The issues here are remarkably similar to those of the Elian Gonzalez case. Here, as then, parental authority should not be removed in the absence of major and irreparable harm.
For the record,
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The longer you breastfeed, the more likely your kid’s teeth will come in STRAIGHT. Lemme find the cite, and get that for you. Basically, rate of Malocclusion (crooked/overlapping teeth) decreases with the increase in duration of breastfeeding. This is because breastfeeding develops the jaw properly, chewing on other things (like artificial nipples, pacifiers, thumbs, etc) does not. Oh, and breastmilk may reduce cavity formation, too.
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Archeological evidence suggests a wide range in ‘non-modern’ breastfeeding duration. About 9 months being the usual youngest for full weaning, and 6 or more years being common for SOME amount of breastmilk still ingested. This from analysis of tooth enamel from human remains in French digs, IIRC, about 4000-6000 BCE. Again, I’ll see if I can find the cite… Not that this is necessarily relevant for modern society, just giving a biological probable norm. I doubt that the need for comfort feedings are vastly different now than then. And just because it is for comfort doesn’t mean it has no food value. Ever see a 3-yr-old eat? Nice to know that they might be getting one or two servings of something very balanced and full of vitamins.
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As for ‘normal american society’ who gets to choose? There are pockets of all sorts of subsets in our society. Normal for your subgroup is probably more relevant than normal for ‘OUR society’ (the mother in question was raised using family bed and high-attachment parenting, herself, so that is the NORM in her family). If there isn’t direct harm, do we get to enforce our personal preferences on someone else?
IIRC (from reading a further article on this situation) The judge in this case initially ruled that the mother was not abusing her child, but that she was putting her parenting philosophy ahead of her child’s needs (it is NOT suggested that she was sexually involved in ANY way, but that her focus on child-led weaning was ingrained to such a level that she didn’t notice or absorb the child’s desire to wean). It is being judged an issue of neglect, not abuse. The judge also noted that the child is unusually even-tempered and sunny. The mother stated that the boy didn’t seem embarrassed or upset about nursing UNTIL he was removed from his mother’s care as a result of it. There is some conflict in the opinions about whether the distress over breastfeeding was introduced by the babysitter (who now has foster-care custody - echoing the tension issue between mother and babysitter already mentioned), or introduced by the people who commented about how wrong it was when they took him from his mom (‘EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW’, may I quote from the above replies), or existed prior to the custody change.
personally, I’m voting for ‘desire to wean may have existed before the custody change, but may have been minor enough to be suppressed or moderated out of a desire to please his mother (his perception, not her intent) - AND desire to wean may have been expressed more forcefully than true intent when around the babysitter, out of a desire to keep HER happy’. I wouldn’t have a hard time beleiving this, honestly. No dad around, babysitter is the other ‘parent’ figure, disagreement on parenting approach, kid in the middle who wants to keep them both happy, a little skew here, a little skew there… kids are masters of adjusting their responses to fit the environment.
I am most disturbed (in the case under discussion) by the loss of custody over a relatively minor neglect issue that might have resolved in a few weeks anyway - it wasn’t even a matter of physical fighting over it - you can’t physically FORCE a kid to nurse, and she wasn’t. It seems way too easy to fit a lot of other normal parenting into the same box.
My sister-in-law’s sister is still breastfeeding her 4 year old. FWIW, I do think that the mother has psychological issues. When Marti fell down - a thing all 4 year old kids do on occasion - the mother screamed and rushed over to her, picked her up, and flopped out her breast in order to comfort the child. And I thought, how is this little girl going to learn to pacify herself if her mother (along with her breast) constantly intervenes? It’s like the parent who allows the child to sleep with him/her every night. What is rooted in genuine kindness - to make our children feel loved and protected - eventually becomes a crutch which does more harm than good. Because we have to give our children the tools to deal with pain and fear.
That being said, I think there has to be a clear-cut sign of abuse in order for a child to ever be removed from his/her parent. Perhaps they could have referred the woman to a psychologist. But take her child away? Absolutely not.
Another factor to keep in mind is that while children should be believed, at that young an age it is also possible to get a lot of false answers out of them if you so desire. I’ve seen older kids convince a 5 year-old child to falsely claim they were being abused (we put a stop to that real fast). I’m sorta in agreement that it seems somewhat odd that the person bringing the claim also has custody–at least for the moment.
Of course, the circustances are very easily explainable if the baby-sitter is the only person capable and willing to take care of him, but I’m taking this w/ a grain of salt till anything more is available…
PunditLisa,
Careful on the assumptions that everyone is like your SIL’s sister (the mom in the case being just like her?). It sounds like that is what you are saying (forgive me if I misread that).
Not every woman who nurses more than 3 years acts like that. THANK HEAVENS. And not every child who ‘co-sleeps’ is being coddled. You have to keep encouraging the outward/onward development, but that doesn’t mean that any given 5-yr-old is really ready to go, or that it is a good idea to traumatize them into going before they are ready. The common failure at the ‘co-sleeping/extended nursing’ side of the spectrum is to forget that kids change every day, and today might be the day that they want to move on. The common failure at the other end is to assume that they are ready because you want them to be. Still, I don’t think that either end is filled with the failures, and most parents adjust to what the kid needs - kids are good at making their needs known.
The woman in this case has said specifically that she does not offer, but she does not refuse. I’m not positive that that is TRUE, but that is what you are supposed to do with extended bf - don’t offer, and if you find the timing awkward or impossible, offer something else as an alternative when they ask. If you don’t offer, they may just forget about it, and that is what is supposed to happen - eventually, they move on, if you aren’t selling it.
I also question the ‘won’t learn to pacify herself’ bit. It assumes that the parental intervention is the ONLY response that ever happens. Same for co-sleeping - most don’t cosleep for naps, so then how does the child fall asleep at naptime? They just DO, because they have experience with more than one option. If the mother is never away from him, it MIGHT be possible to have a child trapped and unable to self-comfort. But sometimes mom just isn’t available, maybe she works, maybe dad takes over on the weekends, maybe grandma watches the kids on Saturday night. A child doesn’t have to self-comfort EVERY BLESSED TIME to learn how to do it. In the case of the OP, the mom works full-time. I doubt the babysitter is offering the breast, so the kid is likely to have a clue how to manage on his own, he just may have a PREFERENCE, which is available only from mom.
Your SIL’s sister does need some help, I’d say - some help to recognize that she’s being run by her own reactions and fears, not her child’s. But I know a ton of non-breastfeeding parents who do exactly the same thing, panic at the least bump… scream, rush over and pick up the child and rock them (instead of whipping out a breast). In my family we call it ‘first-time-parent-syndrome’. Once your child really has a bad fall, the panic mode gets reset to only the really SERIOUS stuff. You learn that they don’t break that easy, and even when they break, they usually mend okay. But ALL parents have to learn that, not just the ones who breastfeed for more than 4 years. Maybe you could suggest someone ask SIL’s sister if she is waiting for a specific VERBAL cue (more than just crying) before offering to nurse… that might be enough to make her think about it? Heck, kids are complex - sometimes they don’t want comfort at all, sometimes they want one kind of comfort, sometimes another. A variety of options helps them learn a lot more than just one response, no matter WHAT that response is.
These kids DO have the tools to deal with their pain and fear - it just includes another option that you aren’t used to.
Although it was not the focus of the accusation or trial,I cannot help but suspect that this case was based, for the most part, on good old American/christian sexual obsession/repression, with a heaping dose of intolerance thrown in for good measure. I think that the outcome may also have been different were the child a girl. Any activity that can REMOTELY be construed as sexual going on between opposite sexes (same sexes too, for that matter!)gets people crazy. Not to say that people would think it less weird, but they would be less likely to think of it as abusive.
The thing that really gets me is that they took her child away…I think of all the children who were UNQUESTIONINGLY being ABUSED, and were handed right back to the abusers (don’t want to step on their parental rights!), only to die at their hands. This must be a sign of the apocalypse…(just BARELY kidding.)
-ng
><DARWIN>
L_L
I agree there is a serious EEEEEWWWWW factor her, but I don’t think the kid is being abused.
I’m a big advocate of breastfeeding, never having had a child myself, and therefore a self-appointed authority on the subject. I think the EEEWWW factor for breastfeeding in general is purely an American cultural bias. When baby formulas first hit the market, they were advertised as sort of an “upper-class” method of feeding the kids. Breasfeeding quickly became regarded as “lower class” or “peasant”, used by those lowlifes who didn’t have the money to spend on the “superior” formulas. Add to this the fact that the breast is regarded, in Western cultures, as a sexual organ, rather than one of nourishment, and, well, we’ve all seen the results.
I think that four would be about the upper age limit for breastfeeding, unless you have a child who is slower to develop physically, in which case, I’d cap it at five. Six or older, you’re definitly getting into wierd territory.
Queen Victoria, I believe, considered one who breastfed her own children to be nothing more than a dairy cow, and was shocked and disgusted when two of her daughters, Alice of Hesse and Victoria of Prussia, breastfed their children. Worse, Vicky actually played wetnurse to one of Alice’s children while Alice was sick.
The Queen, in fact, named a cow in the royal dairy-Alice.
What tends to get lost in these decisions is the fact that taking a child away from his/her normal parents also risks harming him/her emotionally. The potential for, and degree of, emotional damage if the kid is left in his/her current situation ought to be weighed against the potential for, and degree of, emotional damage if the kid is uprooted from his/her normal environment and placed in a foster home.
I do not know if this is taken into account in legal child-custody decisions or not.
So… if I’m 29 and still breast feeding… it’s a bad thing? 
It was a factor that I was trained to respect when I was trained as a guardian ad litem (court-appointed investigator in child custody determinations in divorce proceedings). It is my experience that it is, sadly, not a factor given much, if any, weight by child protection nazis.
I’m not going to get involved in a thread on the pros and cons of breastfeeding, however the ‘complete’ story on the news article has some details that may help understand the judge’s decision.
I picked this story up on the UPI ticker on Dec 11th, and the article ends with a statement that the DCFS (the local child protection agency) wouldn’t comment on judge Einhorn’s ruling, howwever ‘its investigation …also found that the mother slept nude with the boy on at least one recent occasion.’, further ‘The mother told the Chicago Tribune she stopped doing that after her son once looked over at her one morning and told her to ‘put some clothes on’’.
This takes the story beyond a What’s Best For The Child discussion and hits a ten on my Eeeeuuuuuww-o-meter. Sorry I can’t provide a link but it came up on a link-unfriendly media.
hedra, I don’t really know the woman in the OP. I do know Phyllis (my SIL’s sister), though, and thought that my observations about her may shed some light on the mother under discussion.
As far as the co-sleeping bit goes, it’s my opinion that children should occasionally be allowed to sleep with mom and dad (e.g. when they’re sick), but that it shouldn’t become a habit. Besides learning to deal with their fears, they need to learn to relax and go to sleep on their own… without having their backs rubbed, or having their hand tickled, or drinking a bottle. Not only does it allow kids to develop sound sleeping habits, but it also allows mom and dad to get a good night’s sleep. (As a bonus, the kiddies can spend an occasional night away at grandma’s house, or an aunt’s house, without a huge bedtime ordeal.)
Other people have different opinions than I do, about both prolonged bf and co-sleeping. I am a firm believer that they should do what feels right to them. I am a parent, and as such have the final say on how MY children are raised. But I also recognize that there are some really neat kids that are being raised with entirely different philosophies.
Eh, Rastahomie lives in Springfield. 
Moonshine, I found a link with that extra bit about her sleeping with the boy here.
I don’t want to get into the discussion of how long it’s appropriate to breastfeed or co-sleep here. I just want to comment on something else the article states:
Having been raised by an “old-fashioned German mother” myself, and being acquainted with lots of other folks with the same experience, I can say unequivocally that her “ethnic defense” for her particular co-sleeping habits is complete bullshit. My gut feeling is that there is more going on here than a simple difference in parenting philosophy between this woman and the court; perhaps the judge got that impression as well.
Yeah, there’s GOTTA be more than just her breastfeeding a five year old. And for what it’s worth to me, the whole “attachment” parenting thing with cosleeping, prolonged breast feeding and baby wearing just gives me the creeps, for some reason I can’t put my finger on. I mean, I’m very CLOSE to my parents, but I’m not ATTACHED, if you know what I mean?
Hmm. I sleep nude about 50% of the time, and sometimes Nicky comes and gets into bed with me. We run around naked in this house a lot, all of us, and no one thinks anything is strange. I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. I mean, if there was something sexual going on, yeah that would be bad. However the perception that nudity=sexual irritates the crap out of me.
Opal, let me clarify my point a bit. I don’t think we can read anything in particular into these woman’s actions on their face, and I certainly don’t want to pass judgment here on anyone’s else’s parenting practices.
However, to say that she does these things (extended bf and sleeping in the same bed as her 6-year-old) because of German cultural traditions is patently untrue - actually, really laughable for those of us who’ve experienced the real thing. What else did she say in court that doesn’t ring true? We also can’t get any real sense of her demeanor in court from the articles that have been written… but I would think that if she came across as a rational and caring mother in all other respects her son would not have been taken away. Maybe she did not, and maybe the judge (a woman) reacted more on that basis than on the woman’s parenting practices per se.
I have to give Fillet a bit of support on this one; having been brought up by a traditional German mother as well, in Germany, any ethnic slant here is bollocks; this sort of thing hasn’t happened to me, to any of my siblings or to anybody I grew up with.
To go further, this woman’s actions are just a little too creepy and smack more if her fulfilling her own (creepy) needs than those of her son. The kid already said he didn’t want to be breastfed or sleep with his mother in the nude, surely if she was so focused on him rather than herself she might have picked up on this before he had to say it out loud, twice, to the babysitter fer cryin’ out loud?
You can take each one of these parts on its own and justify them; breastfeeding bad? No. Nudity bad? No. Mother raising her son on her own bad? No. But the whole picture together doesn’t leave such a good taste in my mouth.