motorcycle for primary transportation

Factual Questions
1

This thread is inspired by Johnny LA’s thread in MPSIMS about saving gas buy riding a motorcycle instead of a car. I’m thinking of picking up a used smaller motorcycle for precisely this reason and I just had a few simple questions. (I’ve tried checking out a few web sites but I can’t find any that address my concerns so I turn to the straight dope bikers.)

  1. How does one go about learning to ride a motorcycle without breaking the law by operating without a license? I’ve seen some courses advertised on the internet but they seem to be all byob {bring your own bike} so it seems you still have to ride the bike around at least a little bit without knowing how. What’s the best way to learn? (I have no friends who could tech me.)

  2. What do you do in the winter? Can you ride in the rain/sleet/snow? Do most people also keep a car to use in the winter?

  3. If you keep a car for use in the winter, how does that work with insurance? Do insurance companies allow you to insure different vehicles seasonally?

  4. I’m 6’4" - 210 lbs., would I look silly on a small bike?

Thanks for all help.

2

  1. Its like a car, at least where I am from. You get a learner’s licence which may have certain restrictions such as no passengers. I strongly recomend a motorcycle course as it will significantly reduce your chances of dying within the first year.

  2. Riding in the rain is uncomfortable but good tires and rain gear make it reasonably safe and tolerable. I rode year round for several years but there is little snow where I am from. Snow and morning ice are incompatible with motorcycles.

  3. Depends on the insurance company. Mine allows you to insure in any multiple of a month.

  4. Yes. Who cares.

3

To answer your questions in order:

  1. For pete’s sakes, take a course! Drivers seem to have a unique ability to tune out motorcycles, so defensive driving training is a good thing. There’s also the added bonus of learning how to properly handle your machine, when you choose to buy one.

There are some available where you can use one of their bikes, although most of the time you have to supply your own leathers, boots, and helmet. Do a little more poking around, you’ll be able to find one, I’m sure of it. The course I took provided training bikes.

  1. I used to take the bus in winter, now I drive. That seems to be what most of us Canadian riders do.

Theoretically, you CAN ride in winter, but it’s not an especially bright idea, unless you’d like to qualify for a Darwin Award.

3)Opal says that you can have two vehicles insured seasonally, depending on the provider. Ask your insurance agent.

  1. I believe the common description of a big guy on a small bike is that he strongly resembles a monkey trying to mate with a football.

When you finally get your bike licence, shop for a bike you feel comfortable on. My first ride was an '81 Suzuki GS-400, and it was actually pretty big for a small-displacement bike. Quick as anything though, I miss it dearly.

Good luck!

4

I don’t know the US laws but I would definately recommend doing a training course, especially to pick up on defensive riding.

Snow you can get along with if its a light machine but ice is a swine. One hazard you may not have considered is cold which reduces your reaction time and diminishes your control since you can’t feel how much effort you are putting in when braking.

Foul weather biking needs some experience, about what to wear if nothing else.

The weather can be a serious hazard, wind can knock small bikes around, certain types of snow stcik to your visor and can freeze rock solid, and your visor can easily mist up on the inside but there are some products that can reduce this.

If you don’t plan on doing hyper speeds in the rain then it will be no problem.

If you have to go to work in the dark then bad weather makes it more challenging as your visibility is reduced by much larger amount than in a car.

Most insurers will insure you for any period you wish from a day to a week, but make sure that the vehicle you are not using is insured against theft when you leave it parked up.

Looking daft is subjective but if you want a small capacity machine that fits you then I’d suggest something like a 250cc trail bike with road tyres on.

These are very economical to run and light too, maintenance requirements are low and everything is easy to get and so easy to jetwash.They are so tall that you can see over the top of cars and everyone sees you.Make sure you keep it very secure as they are attractive items to certain scumbags.

Unfortunately they tend to have hard seats small fuel tanks(but you can get larger aftermarket ones) and they are not good on freeways.

I doubt that I’d recommend anything much smaller tham 250cc as you need to be able to keep up with traffic which would mean thrashing the bike everywhere.

5

thanks guys. that should help me get started. hopefully I’ll get out and get that learner’s license.

6

This is a very good suggestion. One of my favorite motorcycles for the city was a 360 enduro (sp?). The large front tire provides for excellent handling at low speeds and your up high for good visibility. They are made to be dropped without sustaining a great deal of damage which can be pretty useful as well. They are also a blast to ride.

7

as far as recommending a bike goes, I’d say, if you’re a big guy, take the rider’s course, then get a Honda CB750 or something of the like… the late 70’s and early 80’s bikes are easy to find, and quite dependable…
My best friend has had a few bikes, and he tells me that the 400’s have to struggle a little, when you’re trying to pass on the highway.
if you’re worried about the extra power of a 750, all you have to remember is the throttle is like a volume knob, not an ‘on’ switch… a little will give you a little, and alot could get you hurt.

8

  1. Get a learner’s permit. I taught my ex-g/f how to ride on an old Honda CB-360T a friend of hers gave her. I learned to ride when I was six, starting on a mini-bike and riding a motorcycle when I was ten. Dirt riding is good, especially when you’re young, because it develops good reflexes. I haven’t taken a riding course, but it seems to be a good idea and the most efficient way of learning.

  2. Not much cold weather here in Los Hideous, but I’ve been caught in the rain a few times. Just be careful in the turns. Also, you must wear a full-face helmet becaause rain hurts when it hits you in the face above 30 mph or so. The biggest problem is that my boots or shoes filled with water. Also, leather jackets become saturated. Best to wear a rain suit. Avoid ice and snow.

  3. I was told that insurance costs increase dramatically above 700cc (at least in California). My 600cc Seca II costs about $200 - $300 per year to insure. Harldy worth suspending insurance for the winter.

  4. I see it all the time. Hell, I’m a big guy. But do you want to look good; or do you want a cheap, efficient means of transportation? Who cares what you look like, if you’re getting 50+ mpg?

My first and second bikes were Yamaha Enduros: a 100cc and a 250cc. While I was on my post-high school European walkabout, my sister borrowed my bike. “If I can ride my b/f’s big ol’ 650, I can ride Johnny’s little ol’ 250!” She was across the street and on the ground before she knew what hit her. She dented my tank. :mad: Being a light-weight, two-cycle bike, the old 250 Enduro was very quick. My dad accidentally popped the clutch and the bike climbed up and fell over on him backwards. Broke his back. Now, except for small displacements (100cc?) two-stroke engines are banned in the U.S. because of emmissions. And the 250 only got about 35 mpg. My personal rule-of-thumb is that a four-stroke engine needs to be about twice the size of a two-stroke for the same performance. Very inaccurate comparison, though. For those who don’t know, “Enduros” were basically dirt bikes that were made street legal with lights. Great on the dirt, but not my first choice for the highway.

What should your first bike be? It’s a matter of preference. Get one that you feel comfortable with. You might want to consider a cheap used bike in case you crash it (and you will). Fibreglas or plastic parts are expensive to replace. On the other hand, there’s nothing like a brand-new bike! Look for at least 600cc. Maybe you could get away with 500cc (I used to have a Honda CX-500 that was pretty good). 600cc bikes have all the power you’ll need as a learner, and it gives you room to grow; plus insurance is reasonable. My 100cc was too big for me when I got it, but I outgrew it in a few years. I’ve been riding my 600cc for just under seven years now, and while I’d like to have more power, it’s quite adequate for the riding I do. Yamaha makes the Seca II, Suzuki has the Bandit, and Honda has the CB750 Knighthawk. All three are inexpensive to buy. The Seca II and the Bandit (which came out a few years later) look very similar, like “CAFE racers”. The Honda has a nice “retro” look. Whatever you decide, make sure it’s in great condition. I’d feel much safer in a ratty car than on a ratty bike. Also, make sure it “fits”. If you’re not comfortable riding it, you won’t want to ride it.

There are things that will bring a bike down, such as sand or gravel in a turn (or in my case, an unseen flattened aluminum can). But barring road debris, a bike is almost always more capable than the rider. The ex-g/f was afraid to lean her Seca II over (probably because she hit some gravel once when she was still learning on her Honda), but I’ve ground the footpegs down on mine by leaning into fast turns. Confidence is a good thing; but don’t be over-confident. There are two kinds of riders: Those who have gone down, and those who will eventually go down. Don’t let it worry you. Just ride smart and ride safe and you’ll probably be okay.

If you find yourself riding in searing heat or freezing cold, remember this: It’s supposed to be fun. Take it in stride.

Always wear a helmet, even if your state does not require it. A leather or kevlar riding suit, stout boots and heavy gloves are an excellent idea; but I’m guilty of not using them. Fortunately I was wearing a full leather suit when the truck hit me. He got a big dent in his brand-new pick-up, and I got a little (barely noticable) scuff on my leather. The nylon “armor” probably saved me from a damaged knee. (No damage to the bike, BTW; it didn’t go down.)

Motorcycle “pros”: Great fuel economy, cheap insurance, cheap or relatively inexpensive to buy, easy maintenance, easy (and in some places that otherwise charge for parking, free) to park, gobs of fun. With a small rack (mine is about 7"x8"), a daypack, and a couple of bungee cords, you can carry an amazing amount of stuff – like groceries.

Motorcycle “cons”: Not a lot of room for passengers (who in any case will need a helmet and might need to be coaxed onto the back of the bike), exposure to the elements (rain, heat, blowing sand, diesel exhaust), inattentive car drivers, and no matter what bike you buy, you’re always wishing you had a (insert name here: Ducati, Yamaha R1, Harley, Triumph, etc.).

9

Yes take a course. I’m pretty sure that the Motorcycle Safty Foundation runs classes in Cananda as well as most if not all the States. Takeing a course is your BEST action to learn. Trying to learn yourself of from a friend is not the way to go.

My second suggestion as always is pick up The Idiots Guide to Motorcycles. it has EVERYTHING in there that you need to begin. It also has suggestions for bikes for beginners plus pictures of most of them. It was/is the ONLY idiot book that wasn’t written for an idiot by an idiot.

Riding in the winter is Ok, but, and I know this from personal experiece :frowning: DO NOT ride if you see frost anywhere. I made this mistake once. I was only going about 15mph and slide on some black ice, it was 40F or so so black ice can be there.

Always wear a good helmet, jacket, gloves, pants and boots. Even when it is warm out wear it, you can get good gear for a few hundred bucks, I just got my GF a jacket for 250 that’s supposed to be waterproof, haven’t tested it yet though.

Riding in the rain isn’t all that bad, just remember to watch out when it first starts to rain and all the crap on the road gets washed away. I’ve ridden though hurricanes a few times so the rain isn’t that bad.

As for your height, a nighthawk 750 might be right for you. They are kinda tall and don’t have too much power and don’t need a whole lot of maitence.

Hope this helps.

10

I highly recommend the motorcycle riding course. Saved
my life a couple of times while I was learning to ride.
There are several organizations that give them. The
most well-known is the Motorcycle Safety Foundation
(http://www.msf-usa.org). On their website there’s a
1-800 number you can call to find out about courses
in your area. The MSF classes are often jam-packed.
There may be other organizations that give motorcycle
training that have shorter waiting lists for classes.
Keep your eyes open, and ask around at the local
motorcycle shop.

A dual-sport or enduro less than 500cc is a good
starter bike. There are also a couple of sporty-looking
bikes that make good beginner bikes - the Kawasaki
ex250 and ex500, Suzuki GS500e and Yamaha Seca-II series.
Most of these will probably be available used with
moderately low miles and only a few thousand dollars.
I just sold my ex250 for $1300 a couple weeks ago.

Just watch out with the fully faired bikes all covered
with shiny plastic. If (or more likely, when) you crash
it, it can easily cost a thousand dollars to replace all
the fancy plastic. An enduro/dual-sport is nice because they’re not covered in expensive plastic.

There are tons of good motorcycling pages on the web,
covering everything from good gear to how to rate a
used motorcycle. I can post some links if you want, just
ask.
You will get much better gas mileage on a bike than
in most cars. I routinely got about 50 mph on my ex250.
However, in the long run you will probably end up with
less savings than you think. The reason for this is
tires. Motorcycle tires are A) expensive and B) wear
out a lot faster than car tires. In the long run (several
years) a motorcycle generally ends up being just about
as expensive as a cheapie car because the high cost of
tires offsets the savings on gas. Though, as gas prices
rise, that may be less and less true. And if you have a
15 MPG gas guzzler right now, the savings will definitely
look great in the short term.
-Ben

11

'Course, with all the advice of “taking a course,” you’re effictively negating the purpose of wanting a motorcycle (saving money). Courses aren’t free! Add to that the cost of the motorcycle.

We still have the cheapest gas in the world!

12

Here in Colorado, ABATE of Colorado offers beginning motorcycle rider courses for the high price of $120.00. That’s for 19 hours of instruction - not a bad price, plus many local motorcycle dealers offer a discount equal to the price of the class. That’s how I learned to ride.

The classes provide the bike, and a helmet, IIRC. You just have to show up.

As far as using a bike as a primary vehicle, I know I wouldn’t for the following reasons:

1 - Very little cargo space. Grocery shopping is difficult, even on a large bike. I had a HD Road King - a large touring bike with saddlebags and a rack - and it still didn’t carry as much as even a small car. If you have to carry anything to work with you on a regular basis, it gets old really fast.

2 - Weather. In the summer, you’re uncomfortable when you’re not on the bike because you had to wear jeans & a jacket to ride the bike. In the winter, you’re uncomfortable on the bike because it’s damn cold out. Bikes are unstable in the snow/rain/wind/etc.

3 - If your primary reason for getting a bike is to save money on gas, look at getting a fuel efficient car instead. I’ve had two bikes - a Kawasaki 750, and the above mentioned Harley. Neither were particularly tiny bikes, but they weren’t Goldwings, either. Average gas mileage was between 40 and 50 mpg. My Honda Accord got about the same mileage, cost less (I bought it used) and was all around a more comfortable vehicle. The bikes were more fun, but I think my enjoyment of them would have been much less had I been forced to ride them every day.

Hope you don’t take this as too horribly grim, but you may want to look at the bike as an alternative, rather than primary transportation. They’re great when you can choose to ride them 2-3 times a week, when it’s a nice day and you don’t have to stop on the way home to pick up that Barcalounger.

13

Ask at a local motorcycle shop about lessons - like others said, most towns have courses by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation and the shops will know. Personally, I wouldn’t recommend an off-road or dual-sport bike if you’re mostly gonna ride in town. Most people seem to end up trading em in for street bikes that are more comfortable. Be careful about getting a small bike that won’t be allowed on freeways. They might be easier to learn on, but you might outgrow it quickly too. You don’t want a bike that’s huge and heavy either when you’re just learning, of course. There’s a “Complete Idiots’ Guide to Motorcycles” that has some good recommendations for “Best First Bikes” and “Best Buys.”

14

Thank you for all the help everyone. Thanks for pointing out the trail bike vs. street bike considerations. I didn’t even know trail bikes were street legal. I’ll have to think that one over.

Also I’ve hunted down the MSF affiliate in my area and found that the basic starter course is $175 for a two-day course on their bikes. Based on the advice from the posts here, I’ll probably end up taking this course. I image that much of what they teach is probably “don’t be a hotdog, motorcycling is dangerous” type of advice, which certainly serves a purpose. In the end it is a dangerous activity and $175 is not a large sum, if I am indeed a safer driver after taking the course.

15

I refuelled today. 3.4 gallons, $6.19, 56.1 mpg. :smiley:

Yeah, the tires’ll get ya. They run $100 or more each and you need to buy two. On a light bike like the Seca II, the rear one lasts about 20,000 miles and the front one about 30,000. Replacements with installation are about $300.

Okay, someone check my math. If I get 55 mpg, then I burn 1/55 gallon per mile, right? If gas is $1.819/gal., then 1/55 * 1.819 = 0.033/mile. My Jeep gets about 20 miles per gallon, or 1/20 mile/gallon. 1/20 * 1.819 = .091/mile. So I’m saving $0.058/mile. If a set of tires costs $300, how many miles at 5.8 cents per mile would I have to ride to pay for the tires? 300 / 0.058 = 5,172.4 miles. Did I do that right? If so, then the tires will be paid for more than three times by the savings in fuel costs.

(If I didn’t do the math right, what can I say? I’m an English and Literature person.)

16

I was surprised when I took the course in Maine after riding for 15 years, off and on. It was really a How To Ride course, low speed slalom, braking exercises, balancing, and some “how not to die” exercises. I HIGHLY recommend, no, really I REQUEST every new biker take this course. Even riders who have been in the saddle for a while, this course is DEFINITELY worth $175. I was a WAY safer rider after that course. Please take it.

17

Sleepy:
Also I’ve hunted down the MSF affiliate in my area and found that the basic starter course is $175 for a two-day
course on their bikes. Based on the advice from the posts
here, I’ll probably end up taking this course.

I recommend it very highly. Like I said, I think it
probably saved my ass a couple times.

I image that much of what they teach is probably
“don’t be a hotdog, motorcycling is dangerous” type
of advice, which certainly serves a purpose.

I hope there isn’t a lot of preaching. The more time
they spend harping, the less time they’ll have to spend
teaching you to be a good rider. If they really spend
more than an hour, cumulative, harping on trivial safety
issues, then I’d say they’re not doing their job. It’s
not as easy as one might think to ride a motorcycle
alertly and well. They need all that time just to teach
you how to stay alive out there.

I’m not too worried, though. And I think you will come
out of it a good, if not excellent, rider. Take heart,
you’re doing the right thing.

Johnny:
On a light bike like the Seca II, the rear one lasts
about 20,000 miles and the front one about 30,000.

You get 20-30k out of your tires? That’s great! What
kind are they, I gotta put a pair of those on my
(next) bike! I used to get slightly more 5k out of
a pair of tires. And this was on an EX250. (Of course,
I did ride the canyons ALL THE TIME…)

If a set of tires costs $300, how many miles at 5.8 cents
per mile would I have to ride to pay for the tires? 300 /
.058 = 5,172.4 miles. Did I do that right? If so, then the
tires will be paid for more than three times by the
savings in fuel costs.

Yeah, I’d just be breaking even.

Actually, there’s even more factors to consider, on
both the car and bike side. Basically, there are three
expenses both cars and bikes incur:

  • Gas (obviously)
  • Maintenance (oil changes, tires, repairs, etc…)
  • Insurance

And, I suppose, one has to factor in purchase price
too somewhere. But anyway…

Depending on the car and the bike, these can be
dramatically tilted one way or the other. For instance,
if you drive, say, a 15 MPG Ford Excursion that breaks
down all the time, and you ride a Seca II or EX-250,
then your bike probably ends up being a lot cheaper
than your car.

On the other hand, if you drive a Honda Civic and
your bike is a Suzuki Hayabusa… then probably the
insurance on the bike alone will be more per year than
everything else about the car combined!

So, it’s tricky. But, a medium-displacement,
non-sportbike is usually a pretty good bet.
-Ben

18

They’re Bridgestones. I like Dunlops better, but the Bridgestones are cheaper and easier to find to fit the Seca II. It seems they last longer as well, but the softer Dunlops I had gripped better. Remember: The Seca II is not a sport bike. It’s a standard-class. It’s also very light. And my riding plays a part. Although I’ve gotten twisty on it, the vast majority of my riding is commuting on the freeway. So a light bike and conservative riding are what lets me get the mileage out of the rubber – and out of the engine. Did I mention I have over 67,000 miles on it? (By the way, my chain lasts for about 15,000 miles.)

Gas, as has been shown, will cost less – sometimes a lot less – than the gas used in a car. Maintenance is a wash. Some things on cars are more expensive, and some things on bikes are. Insurance is a lot less on my Yamaha. See point 3 on my original response.

Purchase price for the Seca II was about $3,600 (plus tax, prep, license) in 1994. In 1999, my new Cherokee cost about $22,000. A brand new medium-displacement, non-sportbike will probably cost between $5,000 and $6,000 today.

19

I’m a big guy, and I’ve ridden both large (full-dress Harley), and small (185cc) bikes for commuting. I look forward to doing so again, soon.

The MSF Riders course training literally saved my life several times. Take it if you want to ride on the street. I’d ridden dirt bikes since I was 7 years old, and I only took the MSF course because I was forced to. I thought I could ride, but boy, was I wrong.

Be sure and get the right clothing, it’s important. A thick, zippered, belted leather jacket is a must. Leather pants are good, heavy jeans at least. No nylon or polyester. Boots with steel shanks and toes, that come up over the ankle. Leather gloves. I like half-finger gloves – that way you don’t have to take them off to do stuff. Helmet, of course – don’t be stupid – but not a full-face one. The chin piece can act as a lever and break your neck. The 1/2 helmet is best. It protects your head, which is the whole idea. Eye protection is the most important. The first time you’re behind a cement truck, you’ll find out! Goggles are best, otherwise good safety-glass glasses. Plastic or regular glass is no good against rocks. Ever been in a car when a rock hit the window? Imagine that on your glasses. Bye-Bye Eye.

As far a being cheaper, yeah, I guess it can be, but that’s not the reason I rode. I just love to ride. It’s fun! Once I got my first Harley, I was hooked for life. The difference was so tangible – I love riding big American Iron.

Get a pickup. If your bike breaks down, AAA isn’t set up to tow it. It’ll be up to you. You can use the pickup for winter commuting. A little S-10 or Ranger will do. It doesn’t have to be pretty, you’re only going to use it in bad weather, anyway.

To directly answer your questions:

  1. How do I learn legally? – Get a learners permit. It allows you to ride on a limited basis. (usually daytime only, no passengers) Take the MSF riders course.

  2. Weather issues. – Rain is not great fun, but do-able with the right clothing. Forget winter weather.

  3. Insurance. – You’ll find that only specialty companies want to insure motorcycles, but that they do have seasonal policies. If you’re going to get a ricer, just pay cash for your bike so you only have to get liability insurance. Do the same for the pickup – get one you only have to have liability on. Much cheaper. Keep the insurance on the pickup year-round, in case you need to haul stuff.

  4. Small bike + tall guy = Stupid looking? – Depends. I’m over 6’3", and at the time about 250 lbs. Performancewise, the 185 was fine for around town, but really pushed the envelope for the freeway. But I looked stupid, because I was so much bigger than the bike. However, not all small displacement bikes are small in size. If you look around, you will find the right bike.

I’m recommending a Harley Sportster for you. Trust me, you’ll love it!

20

Danalan: I’ll disagree with you about the helmet. There are arguments for open-face and arguments for full-face. I find that full-face helmets are far more comfortable for riding in any kind of weather. When it’s 30º out, it’s nice to have something to tuck your bandana into. I’ve taken a few falls; mostly on the dirt, but a couple on the road. If full-face helmets were as dangerous as you imply, they wouldn’t be allowed. I’d say it comes down to a personal choice.

Also, I disagree about the goggles. Back when I was a kid in the 70s I wore an open-face helmet and goggles. The goggles were Uvex Gran Prix with safety glass lenses. I don’t remember how many lenses were broken by rocks thrown up by other riders. And they were expensive to replace. I’ve never had any problems with plastic visors on my helmets, whether the helmet was full- or open-face.

And finally, the Sportster. It’s too expensive for the performance it delivers (IMO) and a Japanese bike is much more reliable and much smoother. Again, this is a personal choice and I prefer Japanese bikes.

Good point about the pickup truck (especially if you get a Harley! :wink: :slight_smile: ). AAA will not pick up bikes, which I found out when I tightened my chain too much and it snapped on the freeway. Or when I’ve needed routine maintenance and had to ride bike to or from the shop and take the bus on the opposite trip. After I relocate to Washington, I’ll be picking up a Toyota Tacoma for just such a purpose. (Geez, a '99 Cherokee, a '47 CJ, the bike, maybe another bike, and then a pickup? Dang! I’ll have to get a big place!)