To distract attention away from the light-saber wearing dude.
We’re in agreement. I totally agree with all this, and as an aside I rather liked the movie. My original objection was in the context of the idea that the ending should have been more sensible and realistic because women wouldn’t act that way. Sort of like complaining that Romeo didn’t check Juliet’s pulse before drinking the poison.
Tarkin didn’t know Kenobi personally. He knew he was a Jedi Master back in the day, and had trained Vader. He might have assumed that he was older than he actually was. He also knew that Obi Wan was a great general and fearless warrior. He might have assumed that, if Obi Wan were alive, he’d have been actively resisting the Empire. Since no one had heard of him in twenty years, surely he must be dead. Lastly, Tarkin knew that the Empire had spent the last two decades ruthlessly hunting down and exterminating the entire Jedi order. He might have assumed that they’d have long since caught Obi Wan and killed him.
Yeah, I have to say, I don’t think Tarkin’s statement is inconsistent at all. As far as we know – and excluding Expanded Universe sources – there are two Jedi in the entire universe during Star Wars. For any given Jedi, odds are pretty good that he’s dead.
The Color of Money (spoilers): Fast Eddie hustles Vince (picking up the dinner tab), but toward the end, Vince screams at Eddie, “You used us! You used me!” and Eddie admits he did, saying, “Yes I did, and I’m a little disappointed, frankly,” or something to that effect.
Now, while Vince was hustled, in a minor way at dinner, and maybe during his schooling on the road (“Why do I always have to lose? Why can’t we make it so I win?” “Because this way there’s something at the end. I wouldn’t do this if the payoff weren’t phenomenal!”), why the hell is Vince so pissed? Just because he’s an immature, emotional crybaby?
And what’s with Amos’s line at the end of the bit when Eddie gets hustled? “Do you think I need to lose some weight?” Huh? I don’t get that…it just comes out of the blue. Sure, he was a subject in psych experiments (and so maybe a bit mentally unzipped because of it), but that line just doesn’t fit in my mind.
Although Orvis has a great line when Eddie introduces him to Vince: “This here’s Fast Eddie Felson. Who the hell are you, the end of the world?”
If only the movie were actually based on the book of the same title, and not another film, The Baltimore Bullet (although Wiki says it’s not really based on the other film, but it has a “large number of plot-point similarities”. Still, the novel was fantastic, and should’ve been this movie. Then the whole thing would’ve made sense.
No argument on Artoo and Threepio not belonging in the movies, but I disagree that Artoo would ever have the conversation you suggest. Surely he already knows that Threepio’s memory has been wiped at least once since the old days; what would be the point?
Remember that after R2 plays the message from Princess Leia, Obi-Wan leans back, strokes his beard, looks at Luke and says, “You must come with me to Alderaan, if you are to learn the ways of the Force.” And Luke was saying he has to get home, it’s late. It would serve no purpose to tell Luke about how him and his dad use to hang with a pair of droids back in the day or that his sister is in trouble or that Darth Vader is his father. Obi-Wan is having a hard enough time convincing Luke to go to Ancorhead, let alone Alderaan.
I interpreted the scene as just being an elaborate prank she played on him. She just likes to mess with him, to show him he’s not as smart as he thinks he is. The main point of the scene was probably just for comedic effect, but it also served to illustrate the type of relationship they have. I may be misremembering and/or misinterpreting though.
That’s probably as good an in-world explanation as anything: that it was a semi-playful reminder that Holmes could be outwitted by this character. I do wonder if there was something more that wound up on the editing room floor, though. Given how prominently this sequence featured in the trailer, I suppose it’s also possible it existed primarily to be in the trailer!
For practical reasons, they can’t show every contingency plan that Palpatine had if things hadn’t gone his way. If Amidala signed the treaty, Palpatine would probably continue to use the Trade Federation to attack another planet. If Maul killed the Jedi on Tatooine, the Trade Federation would have been able to operate without interference. I think…I don’t remember the plot to TPM very well now
Were the clones bred by the Empire bred with some kind of programming that made them loyal to the Empire? Or were they simply clones who chose to serve the Empire?
well, they could have at least not shown the emperor enabling things as if he wanted things to play out the way they did. like, when the emperor was sketching out the plan, he clearly does NOT want naboo to sign any sort of legitimizing treaty. he NEEDS naboo to cry foul, so he gets to push for a vote of no confidence… yadda yadda yadda. so why even bother with treaty negotiations? why not just push on with an invasion?
i have an even bigger problem with the EU concept of immaculate conception of anakin. he was prophesized, made, and then left on tatooine? then sidious orders the trade federation to kill the jedi, but he doesn’t really want the jedi to die. he wants them to escape. but he doesn’t want them to escape directly, he wants them to escape with the queen. but he doesn’t want the escape to be totally successful. they have to stop by tatooine for parts. but he doesn’t want them to get the parts successfully, he wants them to be hassled and entangled into anakin’s life. then AND ONLY THEN can the jedi, queen, and anakin proceed?
i mean, i understand it’s convoluted because it’s a contingency plan… and yet it’s the ONLY plan that makes sense. the “easy” plan would be if the jedi just failed at negotiations and went back to report, bypassing tatooine entirely. so… wtf?
it’s really like lucas said - i want the jedi to fight the robots, then have the queen meet anakin, and then eventually, the gungans fight the robots. oh, and a podracing scene and a space battle. plot be damned, these will all tie together somehow. let’s just start designing now and worry about continuity and logic later.
I don’t think any part of that was in Sidious’s plan. I’m pretty sure Sidious’s plan called for Amidala to die on Naboo, and any meddling Jedi to die with her. Obviously, we can only conjecture as to what Sidious’s original plan was, because he doesn’t have a Bond villain scene where he lays out his whole scheme, but I think the idea was to have the Naboo conflict spin out of control much faster than it did. I think the original intention was for Maul to murder Amidala while she was in Trade Federation custody, without the Trade Federation’s knowledge or consent, so that he could use her death as a rallying point with the Senate, painting the Trade Federation as depraved murderers. He would then use that outrage to have himself named Chancellor, and get himself granted war powers, kicking off the war that much earlier. Amidala surviving and throwing the invaders off of Naboo threw a wrench into that plan - by defeating the invaders herself, the Senate was relieved of the necessity of intervening directly, and Sidious had to drastically alter the time table of his over-all plot.
I don’t believe that Anakin was ever a part of his plans until he met him as a padawan in the second movie, and sensed that he was someone he could manipulate and, eventually, turn.
Later, Palps insinuated that either he or his previous master may have been responsible for Anakin being born through the Force. It’s possible that Palpatine moved onto Plan B when Anakin was discovered whereas he was originally planning to go rescue him and nurture him into the Dark Side himself. It was all a huge Xanatos Gambit.
But that sounds like more planning and scheming than Lucas would have come up with to me.
Okay, here’s one I just saw again and have seen tons of times but never understood.
In Raising Arizona in the big fight scene at the end with Leonard Smalls, HI, and Ed there’s the part where Ed is running with Nathan Jr. and HI smacks Leonard off his Harley with a wooden board. Leonard then throws a knife at HI and it sticks in the board HI is holding. HI looks at it and says “whoa”.
Then here’s the part I never got:
HI then does some sort of move where he elbows the board at the same time bringing up his knee with a “huuuughh”.
What the hell was he doing?
I don’t want to hijack the other Bond thread, but I’m curious about The Man With the Golden Gun. So the evil plan is to sell the plans of a solar power plant? Which of course will set up a monopoly because there’s no way other people won’t be able to figure it out?
Alsol, how about Goldfinger? Maybe it’s because I was born after Nixon ended Bretton Woods, but I still don’t see how irradiating a known quantity of gold that wasn’t going to be used for anything else anyway would have a real effect on the price.
Yeah, but that’s coming from a guy whose basically got lying as a superpower. I wouldn’t trust anything this guy says, especially if he’s saying it to Anakin, which as I recall was the case here. In particular, he’s trying to manipulate Anakin by posing as a father figure. Makes sense that he would tell him, “You know that whole thing about you not having a father? Actually it was me who caused that whole thing. Which kind of makes me your dad, doesn’t it?” I also think it resonates better if the whole thing was a lie to corrupt what was genuinely a spontaneous pregnancy created by the Force in an attempt to heal itself. Having the messiah turn evil, in part because of a lie about his parentage, makes Sidious look like that much more of a scumbag. And lastly, it makes a nice mirror image of Vader’s similar revelation to Luke in Empire, except that Vader never lies to Luke.
From the script:
V: God! You used us! You used me!
E: Yes, I did…but you’re in Atlantic City now with the big boys. You’re not back there playing around with baby dolls. Think about it.It’s a wash.
Eddie has re-kindled his desire to play the game (not just be standing on the sidelines) and this happened as a natural? consequence of getting in on the gambling action again - playing the circuit. Eddie is going out on his own, leaving Vince behind. Hence Vince feels betrayed, and maybe even a little scared, that Eddie is leaving them to fend for themselves. Eddie had been like a father figure for him and now he’s just walking out.
Now we don’t know whether or not Eddie did intentionally started training Vince with the ultimate aim of getting himself (Eddie) back into the game, but I like to think he didn’t. Just that his love of the con and of the game were just re-ignited over time. Even though he admits to “using them”, I don’t think he did it intentionally but he can see how it might look that way, so he just agrees but says that he’s also helped them out too by showing them the ropes, therefore “it’s a wash” (i.e., we’re even).
Vince is still learning the ropes. His greatest love is the game, and he’s not very wise, yet, as to how he can use his skills to make money. Yes, he is still pretty immature. He needs to win because for him, victory at 9-ball has always been his thing, not making money.
It’s just a bit of character dialogue - Eddie now knows Amos is hustling him, and Amos is too cool/crazy? to care. He’s asking questions as if they were close friends - ballsy, don’t you think?
Eddie is a legend at the game. But he’s managing for this punk kid? Hard to believe this situation, so he’s all like, “what the hell is this?!, the end of the world?”
I haven’t read the book though. It’s just my take on the film.
About time somebody mentioned Romeo and Juliet. I’ve always identified the two as being thematic siblings, though not identical, because there are subthemes in each that aren’t present in the other. I’ll just pin down a few things in Thelma and Louise that make the ending sort of inevitable:
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It’s a tragedy – of course it’s going to end badly;
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OK, that was cheap; for real this time: Thelma, repressed housewife, is seduced by the thrill of being bad – she’s spread her wings for the first time, and she can’t bear to stop flying;
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Louise, traumatized victim, has taken control of her life, and can’t bear to turn it over to the law, her boyfriend/husband(?), or anyone but (in part), her sister-in-crime.
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Thematically, the story is most like R&J, or any tragedy, in the way a couple of bad breaks and some innocent mistakes interact with the characters’ essential flaws to send them to their doom.
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Specifically, it’s like R&J in that the essential flaws are impetuosity and an exaggerated regard for their own drama. If either pair had contained one person who was capable of some pragmatic cost-counting, there would be no deaths, but Romeo and Juliet were both too young for that; Thelma and Louise were both too freaked out by the prospect of losing their freedom – their buttons had been well and truly pushed.
Let’s just put this to rest:
SCENE 1: GEORGE LUCAS SITTING AT HIS WRITING DESK, THINKING OUT LOUD AS HE TYPES
Okay, basic outline for story arc done. Now on to the first script. So…opening crawl, and Obiwan goes to negotiate with the Trade Federation…hmmm…IT’S A TRAP!..
(type, type, type)
[FADE OUT AND FADE IN, INDICATING TIME PASSING]
This just isn’t working. I need more exposition and I’ve already got Obiwan talking to himself as much as I can get away with. Hmm…I could give him someone to talk with, a droid maybe…no, another Jedi! But why have two? I’ve got it–a master and an apprentice. Reinforces the meme I introduce later. But Obiwan takes Anakin as his apprentice–he can’t have two can he? Wait…Obiwan is the apprentice…so, let’s see…Obiwan Kenobi sounds kind of African, maybe something Chinese-sounding…hmmm…Qui…Gon…Jin. Yeah that’s it! But an apprentice can’t have an apprentice! Damn! Maybe Quigon takes Anakin as his second apprentice. No. Make up something new. Hmmm…Paduan Learner. No, that sucks–I’ll use it for now and come up with a better name later. So…how does Anakin end up as Obiwan’s apprentice instead of Quigon’s? Oh, easy–Quigon dies at the end of Episode 1. In Episode 2 Obiwan will have Anakin to have expository conversations with. Oh crap! Who kills him? Can’t have some random battle-droid do it–the fanboys will have a fit. No, it has to be EPIC with a light-saber duel and stuff. That way nobody will notice that he was made up just so Obiwan will have someone to talk to. Sidious can’t do it–Palpatine is on Coruscant. I don’t want to introduce Dooku/Tyrannus yet. I need a new Darth. Let’s see…Mail, like chain-mail. No, Maul! Yeah, great. And then Obiwan kills Maul so we don’t have to work him in to the next film. All right!
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[FADE OUT, FADE IN]
No, this won’t work! I can’t have Maul just show up at the end like that. I need to work him in earlier…but where? Wait, my outline already says, ‘Jedi Council becomes aware of the Sith presence.’ So, some Jedi needs to have a run-in with him and report to the council. Obviously Quigon. But, when? And how do they both survive to fight later? Ha ha! So obvious. On Tatooine, when they’re leaving and they have to protect the Queen! But, wait. If he had succeeded he would have messed up his Master’s plans. Shit! Oh, well. I guess I’ll just have to hope the fanboys don’t notice.
(type, type, type)
END OF SCENE 1.