Ms. Forums-you're all nuts

No, it’s not. The Enlightenment gave us a lot of ideas about the metaphysics of truth and knowledge that have been challenged, to put it mildly, in the last century. To be more clear, a lot of very respectable philosophy has been done by thinkers like Wittgenstein, Husserl, Sartre, Davidson, etc., that undercuts the validity of any claim to Truth. Postmodernism is a fairly extreme form of a lot of that work, but it has its moments.

And that’s the point. You said that you feel a duty to correct falsehoods, when there are plausible arguments to be made that what you consider falsehoods are mostly accidental to your time and place and perspective; at the very least, bounded by your particular circumstances.

These are certainly arguable positions. It’s not the case that Relativism won out against Transcendentalism, and someone forgot to tell you. But it’s perfectly plausible to view truth as something less than absolute, yet more than perfectly subjective. In that sense, one can be suspicious of those who argue from on high, claiming perfect rationality. One doesn’t throw out logic, but one also doesn’t sacrifice intuition and experience. One is also aware of the limits of rational argumentation, as we Dopers often are when arguing that moon landings really did happen, but our only argument is that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is on our side.

“Principle of Charity” comes from Donald Davidson, who said something along the lines of first understanding something with maximum internal coherence–in other words, first grasp how that thing makes sense to itself, before criticizing it. In philosophical argumentation, this leads to the corrolary that one doesn’t defeat a thesis unless one defeats the most charitable interpretation of that thesis. In feminist terms, it means listening without judging to someone expressing something from an alien viewpoint, and seeking to understand that expression in its own terms. It doesn’t mean all criticism is suspended; it means giving the benefit of the doubt to an expression of a viewpoint different from one’s own, and being wary of judging it by one’s own, inapplicable experience.

“Oppressed Groups” in feminist discourse is pretty much anyone who is from a community that is not the dominant, mainstream community. In our case, that’s white, heterosexual men. Again, one can argue about the degree and validity of the label “oppressed”, but that misses the point–if those people are, in some sense, oppressed, then, according to the principle of charity, it behooves us to listen uncritically first to be sure that we’re not silencing them with our power, when we think it’s our rationality.

I don’t know what porn you’re watching, then. Too bad I just cleaned out my junk mail bin, or I could give you countless spam e-mails screaming “CUM-COVERED SLUTS! SCREAMING ASS-RAPED TEENS!” etc. Even the most “vanilla” porn I’ve seen reflects something of this “fuckin’ bitches” attitude, and some of the stuff I see in banners is so fucking vile I could kill the perpetrators. I’m sure there’s some fraction of porn that isn’t demeaning to women, but it’s a rare and welcome site. Honestly, the attitude that porn in general doesn’t degrade women is just baffling to me; I can only hope we’re going on different sources here.

The thing that gets me is when a man tries to be supportive, they’re like, “Shut up-you’re from the priviledged class-you don’t and can’t understand.”

Because we all know that being a man automatically makes you unable to understand what it’s like to feel put down.

:rolleyes:

Nay-porn degrades intelligent human beings, at least, to my mind it does. For the most part, I really don’t like porn. But then, I simply choose not to read/watch/listen to it, whatever.

However, at the same time, the idea that porn is responsible for the oppression of women is just like saying that video games are responsible for school shootings. However, when I made the comparison, I was told that video games ARE responsible for school shootings.

Way to take personal responsibility!

I’ve been reading this over, and, well, I don’t know. It’s okay as far as a trainwreck goes, but I think I preferred the When Bigots Attack! of a month-ish ago instead. Still, it’s the thought that counts.

I’m half sympathetic, because I’ve known guys who went up to women at marches, cocked their fist, and said “I’m down with the struggle, sister!”, and then complained later that they didn’t get their hero biscuit.

It was put to me once like this, when a woman I knew was relating an argument with a man who wanted to come on a take-back-the-night march, but wasn’t allowed. He just wouldn’t grasp that the point of the march was for women to take back the night; he couldn’t understand why his support wasn’t wanted in that case, and he was offended.

I’m also reminded of the scene in Malcolm X, where Malcolm is entering a building at a university, and pretty, white, female student says “Mr. X, what can I do to help?” and he says “nothing.” She looked confused because she didn’t understand that it can be as patronizing to think that they need your help in their struggle as it is to dismiss their struggle.

On the other hand, there are feminists who simply won’t believe that a man can “get it”, and won’t acknowledge at all that you’ve struggled in some sense with your own feminist experience.

Ultimately, all you can do sometimes is just back off and remain knowingly silent.

Okay, a couple of points:

-Hansel, you keep putting words in my mouth. I know I’m thin, but I don’t need you to feed me.

I said I was trying to engage in productive, civil discourse. YOU are the one that said “rational.” Believe me, I’ve studied radical feminism too much to fall into that trap.

As for my experience not being relevant, let’s look at what I posted, shall we? I posted a story about the first time I heard of my lesbian ex-girlfriend having an orgasm, and my reaction to it, and her obliviousness to my reaction. How could it possibly be more relevant to the question of whether all women’s sexual responses are a performance for men?

I was engaging in consciousness raising! I was talking about my experiences and how they related to the idea at hand. And since I’m a guy and have been around women having sexual responses, and since the question is whether women’s sexual responses are a performance for guys, my experience is relevant.

Compare that to Rich, who came in and spouted some dogma about the patriarchy, and the fawning reception he got, and tell me that it’s really about my barging in and trying to educate them. Sheesh. You’ve got an idea of what I did, and damned if you’re gonna go back and look at it to see if you’re right.
Too risky, eh?

AHunter, great story. It illustrates beautifully why radical politics is so fucked up today. Just so you know, the moderate position you described is anything but.

I saw it first in the environmental movement when I was sixteen. And then in the women’s movement when I was seventeen. And then in the human rights movement when I was twenty. And then in the anarchist movement when I was twenty-one. And then in the civil rights/economic justice movement when I was twenty-five. And now I work at a humane society, and every month or so I see some radical animal rights idiot shooting us all in the foot because they aren’t willing to build alliances, because they’re more interested in being self-righteous and GoTeamGo than they are in working toward a goal. The goal, in fact, is an acceptable sacrifice if they can keep themselves all pure and ego-stroked by sacrificing it.

So, yeah. Turn this all into personal attacks on people who are both feminists and men. Tell us that we’re not your allies, and guess what? I won’t be your ally any more. I won’t help your violent ass out in your struggle.

But I come from the South, and down here, the second-person plural is y’all. And it’s just you who’s lost me as an ally.

Well, you and Dee. Tuna fish and ice cream, Dee and feminism. She may have traumatized me, she may’ve pressed my buttons, she may have made me realize how easily affected I am by words. But she’s useless toward her cause. Not everyone knows the difference between you and y’all.

Daniel

Daniel, while I agree with you on most stuff, why don’t you just ignore Dee? I mean, really.

You’re very good at reciting your radical cred.

The question was about how women feel about that, or how they’ve dealt with feeling like that, not about whether or not men expect that. No, your experience was not relevant. They were not trying to establish the truth about men’s experiences, and they were justifiably sceptical about your reports on your girlfriend’s state of mind.

Listen to yourself. “I’m an environmentalist, I’m an anarchist, I’m into human rights and animal rights and civil rights and economic justice. I’m so down with the struggle!” Yet you’re upset that Rich was accepted and you weren’t. When did that thread become about you?

When did they ask for your help? When did it become about you?

[off topic] I spent several hours last night reading through threads over at the Ms messageboards in forums other than the Sex forum, and I’m wondering why the hell someone hasn’t sued the ass of them for the blatant copyright violations on their website which don’t even attract moderator warnings, let alone any editing. [/off topic]

Yes, it is. :slight_smile:

I have never claimed “Truth”. I claim only probable truth. Please don’t set up any further strawmen.

I’m not sure that I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that my belief is accidental to certain conditions?

If so, you are correct. This has no bearing whatsoever on the truthfullness of that belief.

Well, you’re comparing apples and oranges by saying “absolute” and “subjective”. It is the case that something is either perfectly subjective or perfectly objective (or that it is composed of things which are themselves in one of those categories).

Another strawman - nobody is claiming perfect rationality.

Nobody is asking them to. My position is simply that there are some correct ways of drawing valid conclusions from those experiences and intuitions.

Of course rational argumentation will never convince someone who is dead set not to be convinced. This tells us nothing about rational argumentation, but quite a bit about those types of people.

I know that you later say, “one can argue about the degree and validity of the label ‘oppressed’, but that misses the point …” But what I think what you say misses the point. I am never behooved to listen to anything uncritically. Sometimes I must remain silent (to be polite), but never must I stop my critical faculties.

If their position is compatible with rationality then they should be able (at least in principle) to defend it rationally. If not, then it is not worth taking seriously.

The only people who would be silenced by being rational are those who having nothing rational to say. I don’t believe feminists in general fall into this category, but the responses of a few of the Msers make me wonder about those particular people.

BTW, why in the HELL is vBB code not working?

No, it isn’t! :smiley: (and the battle of the emoticons begins…)

I didn’t say that you did claim perfect truth. I asserted that lots of respectable philosophical work has been done that questions whether or not we have any access to Truth at all, or whether truth is a commendatory property that we ascribe to beliefs that are justified in our limited perspectives.

In a nutshell, yes. Your beliefs are, to some degree at least, a product of your circumstances.

God help me, I heard Ed McMahon saying: “you are correct, sir…”

The bearing it has on the truthfulness of your belief is that, if your whole rational dialectic is bounded by your limited perspective, so is the truth of your beliefs.

I can’t really dig into this one without starting a whole new thread in GD. Suffice it to say that the subjective/objective dichotomy has been thoroughly attacked, and I give those attacks creedence.

Not a strawman: I didn’t say that you were claiming perfect rationality. My point was illustrative of a mindset that I believe many feminists have.

They’re not attacking logic, they’re seeing it as a limited tool, and that much meaningful discourse occurs outside of its constraints, and it’s worth paying attention to.

Perhaps my example was a bad one. You’re right that the tinfoil hat brigade are usually just obstinate contrarians. My point was that logic only goes as far as the participants of the debate accept common terms and common rules.

You are behooved to listen to something uncritically, because you might learn something you wouldn’t otherwise. As I said before, that doesn’t mean that you suspend all judgement; it means that you apply the principle of charity and first seek the most internally coherent interpretation of what you’re listening to.

In principle, yes. But this goes back to my point that the oppressed groups to whom they are listening have often not been in a position to rationally defend themselves as well as their purported oppressors. Until recently, the halls of academia and legislative power were largely white and male. Members of oppressed communities didn’t have the forums to defend themselves, didn’t have the education or the means to the education, didn’t have the financial independence to study and publish on their own, or to read on their own and be aware of the scholarship that depends on rational discourse. It’s like a trial by champions where a peasant is expected to fight a knight to prove the king stole his land–a lopsided battle has no guarantee of a just outcome.

It’s worth taking seriously for the same reason that another knight might step in to defend the peasant–because the king might have stolen his land, and the poor peasant getting stabbed in a duel doesn’t prove otherwise.

We have public defenders in our justice system because we recognize that there are those without the means to defend themselves–both with money, and with knowledge of the law. Your admiration for rational discourse ignores the fact that there are those who are less eloquent, less educated, less quick-thinking, less rhetorically gifted, who may have something to say but are shouted down because they don’t walk the walk as well as others.

Guin, I’m gonna ignore Dee from here on out. I have a thinner skin than I should, and her accusation – that I’m not a feminist (or, more broadly, that I don’t pay attention to living my life in a just, equitable fashion) – happens to be one that strikes close to the core of my identity. Emotionally it really upset me, whether it should’ve or not.

Hansel, now you’re just being a jerk, distorting what I say. Go ahead and feel all self-righteous and pure about your reconstructed status – there’s no one more irritating than a reformed drunk. But I’m gonna ignore you from here on out.

In fact, this topic is honestly doing me very little good, so I’m bowing out of this thread. Meet me in the great debates one if you wanna talk.

Daniel

You’ll be pleased to know they’ve now sent at least email complaining to whoever actually admins their boards complaining about the influx of “trolls”.

Trust me, it’s taking a huge amount of self-restraint for me not to email the two Australian media outlets whose copyrighted material has been posted in its entirety on that website. Fortunately, I probably feel more antipathy towards Kerry Packer thanthey do towards the “patriarchy”.

Well, I think I may save this thread in order to illustrate why I hold capital F ‘Feminism’ and pseudo-intellectual blather about ‘Enlightenment’ schemes in such low regard, if not contempt.

Thank god I studied economics and not literature, such that my head is not filled with such fundamentally nonesensically fuzzy thinking.

Patriarchy, schmaitrarchy.
Bah.

I’m not proud of my reconstructed status, and I’m sorry that I’ve been a jerk.

Good thing I’ve been using a small ‘f’, and have the same disdain for pseudo-intellectual blather about ‘Enlightenment’ schemes.

Wait a minute…

I appreciate your apology. My feathers are pretty ruffled right now, so I’m not gonna post anything else about it; maybe in a few days when I’m feeling calmer, I will.

Take care,
Daniel

The more times I reread this, the funnier it gets.

Good one, Collounsbury.