Muhammed Ali: Hero or Scoundrel????

Great Debates
21

To ANYONE who feels sorry for Muhammad Ali, who thinks it’s tragic that the boxing establishment stole his title, don’t fret- the boxing establishment MORE than made up for it by letting keep the title for YEARS after he was no longer worthy of it.

Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers beat Ali soundly. Jimmy Young made him look feeble and pathetic. And yet judges looked the other way, pretending that Ali won those fights.

Now, here’s a question: WHEN is a champion in any sport supposed to know when it’s time to quit? Simple- when he finds he can’t do the things he used to do easily. When Joe DImaggio realizes he can’t get around on a fastball he once would’ve creamed, he packs it in. When Chris Evert found herself losing in Round 1 to no-name players, she knew it was time to hang up her racket.

When Muhammad Ali was handled with ease by a nobody like Jimmy Young, he SHOULD have gotten the message: you AIN’T the Greatest any more, you never will be again, you’d better quit while you still have a few brain cells.

But of course, the boxing establishment made sure Ali didn’t get that message. They lied to Ali. They told him he’d beaten Norton, Shavers and Young… and they sent him out to take more punishment (and earn them more money). When you look at Ali today, you have to wonder if they did him a favor.

I’ve told this story before, but it bears repeating. Back around 1975, Ali was visiting a school in Harlem, and saw a little black girl wearing a cross. He began loudly mocking Christianity, and teasing the girl. “Hey honey, if your girlfriend got pregnant, and she said the Holy Spirit did it, you gonna believe her?”

Now, even if you’re NOT a Christian, I HOPE you can see what a repoulsive thing that was to do. A big man ridiculing a little girl’s religion? That make Ali a contemptible bigot and a bully, as far as I’m concerned. But it’s worse than that!

You see, a Jew, a Buddhist or an atheist is entitled to laugh at that joke. A MOSLEM is not! Because the author of the Koran, the original prophet Muhammad, did NOT believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but he DID believe in the virgin birth of Jesus (strange as that may seem)!

Folks, I’m Catholic, and even I know that. But Muhammad Ali, who’s supposedly a devout Moslem, DIDN’T know that! I guess he must have been absent from the mosque the week they taught that. So, not only is he a bully and a bigot, he’s an ignoramus and a PHONY, who doesn’t know the first thing about the tenets of Islam.

Oh, and let’s not forget the biggest fraud he pulled off. Didn’t you LOVE his tearjerking story about how he threw his Olympic gold medal in the Ohio River, after experiencing racism in America? Yeah, right. Everyone in Ali’s family and entourage and family now admits that Ali was simply a careless dork who LOST the medal!

But hey, Ali was never one to let the truth get in the way of a good politically correct fairy tale.

22

Joe Louis did what his country asked him to do. Ali didn’t.

Not quite. The two years in between Louis spent knocking out three other people, including a former world heavyweight champion. Max Schmeling a punk? Two little words - Leon Spinks. Ali had to call on everything he had to decision him over fifteen. Louis knocked out Schmeling in 2:04 in their rematch, and broke his spine in the process. Ken Norton beat Ali (in my opinion) all three times they fought, and I didn’t even think the third one was very close. Jimmy Young bitch-slapped him around and got robbed. Ali was washed up for the last few years of his career. A fifteen round decision over Evangelista? Please.

FTR, Ali has Parkinsonianism, not Parkinson’s disease - they are different. And yes, it was brought about from blows to the head. Ali has enlarged cerebral ventricles from brain cells dying off. He can hardly walk now - watch him, and you can’t understand him at all.

And keep my mother out of it. Or step into the Pit where you belong.

23

I think this story arose from the Nation-of-Islam-hired writer (whose name I don’t recall) who ghost-wrote Ali’s “autobiography,” many, many years ago. (source: Thomas Hauser’s bio on the Champ)

What’s really amazing, though, is that as recently as 1997 the Champ said in a newspaper interview, “Yeah, I threw it into the river [yadda, yadda, yadda].” Only a year earlier, Bob Costas said in front of a couple billion people just before he was given a new medal, “That story isn’t true.”

Apparently the Champ didn’t hear about it.:rolleyes:

24

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Absolutely not. However, the tone of your argument seemed to attribute certain statements as being my own, including a warning about the use of the word “racist”, and I just wanted to point out that my intent was to point out what OTHER people were saying, prssent both sides of the argument, and let the sparks fly.

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I personally think Ali was just using the word “gorilla” because it went well with the word “Manila”. As for the possibilty of the word being considered racist by African-Americans, well let me put it this way.

I’m driving down to Philadelphia tonite to check out the U2 concert. After the show, if I decide I want to drive into West Philly, and find some black people, and lean out the car and call them “gorillas” do you think there’s a SLIGHT chance I might get my white ass kicked? Or if George W. Bush says that Colin Powell reminded his of a “big huggable gorilla”, wouldn’t there be just a BIT of an outcry from the black community (case in point: Howard Cosell being criticized for saying that a black football player was like a “monkey” on the field)?

I guess what I’m trying to say is that using such references CAN be perceived by some, or many as racist, regardless of your personal point of view.

**

That wasn’t right at all. But when you hear or read that comment, it does make you think: what is about this man that is adored by millions that would make someone that knew him maybe better than most to say something so cruel? The debate over an outrageous comment like that inevitably opens up Ali’s legacy to examination.

As for their fights, when you take a look at the physical condition of Joe Frazier today, and Muhammed Ali today, and attribute Ali’s ailment to his years in the ring and not Parkinson’s, I guess there IS a possibility that while Frazier lost the fight, he won the war, if you know what I mean!

25

I can’t believe no one has jumped on this, though it does veer from the OP.

I’m looking for a cite form the Koran that says that boxing is against Islam.

What about Prince Naseem Hamed? He’s very devout, and a hell of a scrapper.

If boxing is against Islam, then where does Prince Naseem (or for that matter, Mike Tyson, who supposedly found Allah in prison) get his justification for boxing?

26

Shodan: Prohibition. Japanese internment in WWII. Segregation. Anti-homosexual bias. Not everything this government has asked of its people has been admirable, honorable, moral or even sensible. Compelling its citizens to serve in an immoral action in Vietnam was one.

Ali said he wouldn’t fight. That took tremendous courage. 20 years earlier, Joe Louis complied, smiled at troops and became a living morale booster in WWII. That took no courage at all.

Parkinsonianism/Parkinson’s Disease is splitting hairs. We KNOW Ali’s Parkinson’s was most likely brought on by repeated head tramua. The symptoms of both are essentially the same: slowed movement, expressionless face, shuffling gait, tremors. I’m not even sure why you’re bringing it up. Is it your contention that Ali is undeserving of being considered a hero OUTSIDE the ring because he has this condition?

Read again. I never ONCE called Max Schmeling a punk.

My bringing your mama into this – obstinsively a knee-jerk ethnic retort common to my cultural peers – was inexcusable. When you made such a light, callous, insensitive remark concerning Ali’s well-being, I was utterly convinced you were somehow whelped into this world without the tempering touch of a female. Again, my deepest, sincerest, humblest apologies for thinking this. Kiss-kiss with sugar on top.

(Note to self: Pencil in appointment book for Thursday: Learn to give gracious apologies without sarcasm and further veiled insult. E-mail flowers to forum moderators and anti-Pit bribe. Add lovely card.)

Vinny: I agree that Ali was just rhyming and should have said so myself in an earlier post. BUT. (Sighing heavily.) Neither Joe nor Muhammad thought he was being racist when he called him a “gorilla” back then. They shouldn’t NOW. It name-calling without a racist invective – because both of them are black.

A white person saying it to a black person, however – given the history of ethnic animosity between our cultures in America – does not get the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if it’s a private joke between two close friends. Perhaps if the two are very young. They definitely don’t if they are screaming out of moving cars or are supposed to be professional commentators. That said, point well-taken about Joe losing the battle but winning the war.

Ivar: Oh, that Shodan’s always spouting off stuff with no basis in fact.

27
  1. We have only Frazier’s word (presumably) that he really befriended Ali. The most photographed athlete in the world and I’ve never seen one photo of him and Frazier just relaxing, hanging out, outside of maybe one or two photo ops after they both retired? Even Malcom X is seen in Ali’s home hugging his kids. As for Ali’s ‘hateful name calling campaign’, it was schtick. He’d done it for years. If it was schtick that hurt, Frazier has his apology. Some things only bother you if you let them. To let this grown man be bothered by this speaks more to Frazier’s own insecurities that Ali’s so-called hatefulness. If I’m wrong about the depth of friendship, I’m wrong… but damn!

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2. I absolutely deny Ali abandoned his family… unless, of course, you automatically equate his name change from ‘Clay’ to ‘Ali’ or his divorces and remarriages with marital abandonment, in which case we’ll never see eye-to-eye. If there’s more to it than that, please enlighten me.

**

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I deny the “many.”

Joe Frazier is the only one I hear about in the ‘betrayed friend department’, and I think Joe is so chock full of it it drips out his ears. I think you’re confusing Ali with Don King in the ‘betrayed business deals’ department. If you’re going to use ‘many’, ‘betrayal’ and ‘slept with’ in the same sentence as a athlete, I think Ervin “Magic” Johnson’s groupies have felt more betrayal than Ali’s lover ever have (call it a hunch). Aside from this, I have no idea, again, what you’re talking about.

THIS man or ANY man?

If it’s just ALI, I actually agree, but he’s not my hero for pugilistic reasons; it’s for his basic conduct as a humanitarian, Muslim and role model after his retirement. If you mean ANY man, explain Jesse Owens to me.

28

Askia writes:

Tinker Grey denied that Ali’s Parkinsonianism was brought about by boxing. It is not exactly splitting hairs; Parkinson’s disease is different from Parkinsonianism. Parkinson’s disease is caused (usually) by other than punch drunkenness. This is why I brought it up.

No, I am not contending that Ali should not be considered a hero because he has this syndrome. I am contending that he has severe brain damage as a result of the boxing career that brought him to the public’s attention. Someone else said that Ali could never be considered intellectually gifted, even before the many beatings he received. This could explain a lot of the less charitable things he has said, as well as his unfortunate decision to continue boxing after it was clear he was a shot fighter.

You further post that I spout off without facts. I shamefacedly admit that you have found me out. I said Louis scored only three knockouts between his loss to Schmeling and his revenge knockout. I should have known better. Here is his complete record of that period:
[ul]18 Aug Jack Sharkey New York, NY KO3
22 Sep Al Ettore Philadelphia, PA KO5
9 Oct Jorge Brescia New York, NY KO3
14 Oct Willie Davis South Bend, IN Exh. KO3
14 Oct K.O. Brown South Bend, IN Exh. KO3
20 Nov Paul Williams New Orleans, LA Exh. KO2
20 Nov Tom Jones New Orleans, LA Exh. KO3
14 Dec Eddie Simms Cleveland, OH KO1
1937

11 Jan Steve Ketchel Buffalo, NY KO2
29 Jan Bob Pastor New York, NY W10
17 Feb Natie Brown Kansas City, MO KO4
22 Jun James Braddock Chicago, IL KO8
(Won World Heavyweight Title)
30 Aug Tommy Farr New York, NY W15
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
1938

23 Feb Nathan Mann New York, NY KO3
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
1 Apr Harry Thomas Chicago, IL KO5
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)
22 Jun Max Schmeling New York, NY KO1
(Retained World Heavyweight Title)

[/ul]He scored a knockout over a former world champion (Sharkey) as well as a current one (Braddock).

Your apology for insulting my mother is accepted in the spirit in which it was offered. Unfortunately.

29

There was a previous thread about this and I wanted to paraphrase my own observations from there because it addresses another angle:
Ali brought Black America into the tv owning homes of white small town and/or non-integrated America (and beyond) for the first time. He was, intelligent, likeable, sharp witted, decent and even noble. This was not what most people thought or expected – if they knew what to expect at all. A lot of white’s had hardly spoken to a black person at that time.

Ali was the first black American – the first black person if you were European – most whites could actively relate to and people reacted in a warm and positive way. What he represented was new and challenged preconceptions At a time when civil liberties were at the top of the social agenda, his media image allowed radical shift’s to be made in the white culture’s perspective of ‘Blacks’. In this, MHO, Ali made the most significant contribution that, in turn, eased the way for fundamental change.

Ali’s route to building to a better understanding was different to that of, for example, the equally worthy MLK. There was no direct preaching, no marches, just a human being doing his thing but nonetheless his example, IMHO, was ultimately a weightier contribution.

He pretty much turned things around single-handedly for people like my father and his generation whose knowledge of and about black people was limited to racial caricature. I’ve seen, more than once, normally sober men respond surprisingly out of character when Ali is discussed – he seems to strike an emotional chord that is difficult to explain but, to my mind, reminds older people of what they thought they knew before Ali caused them to fundamentally re-think their attitudes.

When he passes – I hope not for some considerable time – there will be more than one white elderly man with slightly watering eyes.

And he really did float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

30

Doubts about Ali’s intelligence stems from people who dismiss all boxers as dumb. You never hear his fans, managers, family, friends say he’s dumb – not even his former wives. Even now, Lalia Ali says her father’s unresponsiveness with Parkinson’s is mostly a ploy, to keep some people away from him. He might not be able to stop his tremors or talk a mile a minute anymore, but he always knows exactly what’s going on, she says.

When you hear cracks about his intelligence, it’s always from some sports reporter who covered maybe a half-dozen of Ali’s fights, or some outsider with impressive academic credentials and no love of boxing. Stanley Crouch’s dismissive crack about Ali being ‘a dupe’ of the Nation of Islam, for instance, is coming from one of the most confrontational members of the African-American intelligentsia/literati, one with a decidedly conservative bent, who looks for forensic arguments from people to justify their positions and when they can’t give them, figures they’ve been played by somebody.

Ali is probrably not intellectually gifted in the sense that he couldn’t even locate Vietnam on a map (most Americans can’t), but academic giftedness means nothing without some common sense, and not being academically gifted doesn’t mean you’re dumb. Crouch conveniently forgets (or never realizes) you don’t need to press for ‘convincing arguments’ why you don’t want to forsake a career you love, to train to kill people you have no argument with, in a war you have no idea what the fighting is about, halfway around the world.

As for staying in boxing too long, sadly, it’s a condition all too many fighters face as they age. Marchiano, Ali, Spinks, Foreman, Holyfield. Archie Moore fought almost three decades. Hell, even Rocky Balboa went a couple movies too many. The greater their achievements in the ring in their prime, it seems, the greater the lure to return to (or stay in) long past when it’s such a good idea. Intelligence has very little to do with such a decision. It’s not an intellectual choice, anyway. It’s made with emotion and heart, the desire for the roar of approval from the crowd again, not wanting to give up the one thing in your life you’ve gotten approval, recognition and praise for.

London-Calling: Wow. That’s just how I feel.

31

I over looked Askia K. Hale’s post of Monday. There are a couple things in there that need a response even though this may just needlessly prolong a debate that has produced a lot more heat than light. Please note that I have conceded Ali’s courage. Weak sisters don’t go into prize fighting. What I do contest is that Ali is a hero, as I conceive that idea. Askia, on the other hand, appears to be convinced that Ali is a modern day very gentle, perfect knight (I know that is an overstatement, but not by much).

With regard to Frazier befriending Ali, no one seems to have questioned that after Ali was deprived of his title, Frazier loaned him money and urged the reinstatement of his boxing license. It may well be that Frazier had a selfish motive in doing that, but I’m not arguing that Frazier is a hero, only that Ali is not. Ali turned on Frazier as soon as it suited Ali’s purposes to do so. It seems to me that there is a substantial difference between helping a man for selfish purposes and cutting his throat for selfish purposes. That Frazier and Ali were not bosom buddies who visited in each other’s homes and played with each other’s kids seems largely irrelevant to the question of whether Frazier helped Ali out when Ali needed help. Clearly he did, and equally clearly Ali churlishly repaid Frazier’s help. The old saying that a friend in need is a friend indeed is certainly applicable to Ali and Frazier. When Ali no longer needed him, Frazier was no longer a friend.

As to abandoning his family, the divorces and remarriages speak for them selves, and make my point. The change of name is irrelevant to this debate. He can call himself any thing he wants.

As to other women, and this is a complete aside, some wag is reputed to have said that Ali slept with more ugly women than the Turkish army. The number of conquests made by Ali, or Magic Johnson, or Bill Russell, is a red herring in this discussion. I can’t think that it is a point in his favor that Ali did not pass a transmissible disease on to his conquests. If he had, however, it would be a strike against him. See, the guy just can’t win with me.

Jessie Owens is a special case at a special time, and a time we should all pray to what ever God we recognize will never come again. To equate Owens and Ali is simply disingenuous. Owens put the lie to what was probably the greatest evil of modern times. Owens lived a life of quiet dignity. That he was poorly treated is beyond debate. That he was a great and good person is likewise beyond debate. That he was a hero by my restricted definition is doubtful.

Bill Higgins died on Christmas Day, 1969, somewhere north of Saigon. He was a chopper pilot and a graduate of the University of Iowa Law School. He was killed on a volunteer mission to evacuate wounded from a hot firebase. He was survived by his wife and his mother, a WWII widow. He was my friend and in my book he was a hero.

32

Spavined Gelding: What a pleasure it has been to discuss with you the proper perspective of Ali’s conduct and the notion of heroism. While you have made any number of concessions to my arguement, let me now also state a few.

  1. Your friend Bill Higgins died in the performance of his duties in the service of his country. There is nothing nobler. 2) I know Ali’s no ‘gentle, perfect knight’ 3) the Magic Johnson comparison was (heh, heh) a red herring.

I think you see Joe Frazier as a backstabbed samaritan by an ungrateful opportunist. I see the whole ‘friendship’ as one-sided and paper-thin at best, and the name-calling mere schtick that was all part of Ali’s game. You think Ali’s actions were unforgivable. I think Frazier’s ‘friendship’ was at best, cloyingly offered, and that he’s been nursing an irrational grudge for 30-some years.

Both Owens and Ali are considered by many to be sports-celebrity-heroes, obviously for very different reasons. My comparison as to their status, slight as it was, was neither disingenuous nor inaccurate. I asked to gain clarity whether you meant Ali alone or all athletes couldn’t be heroes because of their athlecticism. You told me Owens was a special case – that was the concession I was after.

Divorce and remarriage – especially when the former wife and kids are provided for – does not always equal abandonment. Newt Gingrich divorcing his hospitalized wife to marry his mistress – THAT’S abandonment. Jesse Jackson fathering an out of wedlock child, paying off the mother and shipping them halfway across the country with no agreed-upon child support – THAT’S abandonment on both sides.

The name change was not entirely irrelevant to the discussion. There are Muslims whose families have felt betrayed because they changed their names from, say, ‘Ruby Jenkins’ to ‘Fatimah Shabazz’. To illustrate this, a family friend once told how shocked she was to learn how, upon her estranged mother’s death, the will stipulated that her inheritance could only be received if and when she legally resumed her birth name. Had this been what you been referring to (I wasn’t sure, you didn’t say) my response would have been: name change doesn’t necessarily mean familial abandonment.

I think this discussion has brought some things to light. One of the wonderful constants of this universe is that in order for there to BE light, there always is some generated heat. As long as it doesn’t burst into flaming, I’ve always been cool with it.

Great talking to you.

33

ivar (and Askia K. Hale) questioned if boxing was really condemned by Islam, or the Nation of Islam.

Therefore:

http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/Naeem4-25-69.html

I certainly don’t want to spout off without any facts.

Regards,
Shodan

34

Shodan: Your original statement was, "Not clear on why he couldn’t go to Viet Nam because it was against Islam, but he could be a professional boxer, which is equally against Islam."

  1. ivar asked for a cite from the Koran condemning boxing. You still haven’t provided one. One doesn’t exist. I, one the other hand, was feeling snarky about that “equally against Islam” business, which explains my “spouting off” remark.

  2. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings Be Unto Him) never saw a professional boxing match in his life. It’s a sport, and damned bloodthirsty one. His comments were in regard to personal physical conflicts (if you must fight, avoid blows to the face), not to sports you’re trained for, where each participant wears gloves and the participants willingly try to render each other unconscious.

  3. Your second comment is an opinion concerning the Shari’ah (sacred law) by Imam Mufti Ebrahim Desai, an Islamic scholar. It’s valid one. It’s also one that only came into vogue AFTER Muhammad Ali retired. Prior to 1969 Muhammad Ali had the blessing of the NOI and much of the Arab world to box. Truth be told, he STILL did afterwards.

Note, too, that Imam Desai says that boxing is not permissible– not outlawed. To paraphrase: “We certainly don’t condone it, but we don’t condemn it, either.” Note, too, he makes the point that income derived from boxing is Makrooh (also spelled Makruh). The state of Makruh is well defined:

Contrast with the opposite term, Haram:

There are other terms:

Wajib - “Obligatory, necessary, incumbent. An act which must be performed.” Ihtiyat wajib - “Precautionarily obligatory.” Sunnat, Mustahab - “Recommendable, desirable. The acts whose neglect is not punished, but whose performance is rewarded, e.g., the call for prayers (adhan).” Ja’iz, Halal, Mubah- “Permitted, allowed, lawful,legal. The acts or the things which are permitted and lawful.”

On your last quote, concerning THEM’s The sport wasn’t condemned; only Ali’s descison to continue participating in it. Why THEM decided to take this extraordinary step is known only to him. It might have something to do with Ali’s growing of awareness of spiritual Islam as practiced outside of the NOI sect – my opinion.

35

Every debate, no how meritorious, needs to end and be submitted sooner or later. I have said just about all I have to say, and so, Askia K. Hale, to paraphrase a real hero, from where the sun now stands I will post on this thread no more forever. It’s Wednesday afternoon, there is nothing to do here that won’t keep until tomorrow. I’m going to go mow the lawn. Thanks, Askia, it’s been fun.

36

Askia-

I do not see the distinction you are trying to draw, but apparently the Nation of Islam didn’t either. They suspended him for boxing in the same way that I assume they would have suspended him if he had gone to Viet Nam.

Whatever. I am willing to accept that you are better qualified than I to split the hairs of Islamic law.

37

I never did figure out who won this debate.

(Looks around cautiously)

Must be me…

38

Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me!

At two o’clock in the morning you ought to be able to find something to do beside resuscitate a thread that was beaten to death six weeks ago.

39

One might argue that two A.M is the perfect time to resuscitate a six week old thread and declare victory in a topic beaten to death.

More pathetic would be to wait twelve hours after that to chastise a man with OBVIOUSLY nothing better to do, while imitating Travis Bickle. No, I wasn’t talking to you, Gelding. Go mow your lawn.

(Ahhhh. Just like old times. Thanks, Gelding!)

40

Who on earth is Travis Bickle?