I’m so confused.
I say that nobody blames Christianity when Christians blow shit up and shoot people, therefore it isn’t fair to blame Islam if a Muslim does it.
You actually think the literal semantics of that first sentence is worth arguing with?
Are you in full possession of all of the facts or just the facts that support your position?
As others have said, all the evidence/data is not in and it is premature to come to any conclusions as to the guy’s motivation.
Godwin in the house.
No, not okay.
When have actual argument come back.
His military record says “No religious preference,” but his family says he’s always been a Muslim. I posted the first item before I became aware of the second item.
No. I process facts as they come in. Are you aware of what I-95 looks like in Maine? How dare you navigate I-95 Northbound in Maryland! Actually, it turns out, you can reach some pretty reasonable and reliable conclusions about how to drive I-95 before driving the entire length of it.
Facts in my possession significantly suggest an Islam-based motivation. They may also suggest a mental-illness based motivation. They may suggest both, pace Bricker. Hell, they may suggest a corellation between Islamic belief and mental illness. But (and I repeat) zero non-Islamist-motivated killers shout out Islamic battle cries, a non-zero percentage of Islamist killers do. Data point.
“God is great” is not a battle cry. Millions upon millions use it every day on multiple occasions.
It’s not a data point. It’s meaningless. Religious mania is often a symptom of mental illness. that doesn’t mean that the specific religion is thecause of anything.
ETA what yojimbo said. The Takbir is not a “battle cry.”
When Muslims embark on jihad – do they refrain from saying this? Or, do they say it?
But the OP’s link lists a quote from a local mosque saying that he often prays in his uniform.
ETA: oh, I see what you are saying now. It’s early here yet. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it.
I think if it is shown not to be strictly true, it isn’t worth arguing over.
Besides, for better or worse this is a debate worth having. Does Islam promote terrorism? I don’t think it does so explicitly in the Koran. But the fact that there is no central authority in Islam coupled with the radicalization and politicization of some imams, mosques and lay Muslims makes the connection to various terrorist movements and actions quite explicit indeed.
I do not know whether this is an example of such - that is far too early to tell. But that doesn’t mean that other examples don’t exist. And it is really no insult to Islam to note that al-Qaeda, for one, is a radical Islamist movement - it is just an observation and a fact that has to be dealt with - and dealt with within the Islamic faith as well.
That’s up to them.
The fact is, that you were wrong – colossally wrong – when you said that “zero non-Islamist-motivated killers” ever say it. Virtually all practicing Muslims say it multiple times a day. It’s no more a “battle cry,” than “Praise Jesus.”
For an act to be religious terrorism, I think religion has to be the primary motive. At the moment it sounds like the primary motivation here was Hasan’s desire not to go overseas to a warzone. But I think you and I are mostly in agreement here, and a lot of the facts aren’t in yet.
The “Allahu Akbar” thing is uncontradicted right now, but it’s worth pointing out that when this started, a lot of reports said there were two or three shooters, and that’s gone by the boards.
Because the mind of a killer is the EXACTLY same as driving on the highway. Good game. :rolleyes:
“suggest”, “may”.
The bottom line is you can’t draw any reasonable conclusions yet.
Sadly, many people in the U.S. will automatically draw a straight line to the conclusion that the shooter was just another Islamic terrorist “confirming” their prejudices.
I mean stupid people.
Godwin walks in the thread everytime you enter one with your nazi-linked user name.
Yes, I’m still not entirely convinced your choice is/was as innocent as you’d have us believe.
Take it to the Pit. Don’t make this thread into a personal argument.
It’s not personal, but it is a fact that 88 is used as code among Neo-Nazis to identify each other
Yes, I know what 88 means to those people. It’s a personal comment on Huerta88, and if it’s going to get debated again, it won’t be in this thread.
This is exactly what I was afraid would happen…
:sigh: It’s going to be just a bit tougher to be a Muslim living in this country again. And thus by extension, it’s also going to be annoying to be Brown again as long as there are people who continue to assume Islam=Terrorism and Brown Skinned Person= Fanatical Terrorist!
So, if a person comes into a thread stating that a particular person or group is associated with a regime of terror, it is of no relevance to point out that the person making the claim has a dubious connection to exactly the same thing? Got it!