Muscles and Steroids.

Factual Questions
1

For many years now, I, probably like the rest of you, have marveled at some men’s physiques. Some men just seem to have big muscles, and the classic six-pack abs, it would seems. And they get it by working out.

Anyways, I have become more skeptical with age. And I have concluded, no one could get such a nice body just by working out alone. Men who look that way, without exception, clearly must be taking steroids.

Am I wrong? There is no way to get a classic muscle-bound physique without it. And I put it here, because it is not a debate, I am just asking, how could a person do so otherwise?

Consider my dentist, for example. He works out on his breaks, I know. And he once posted a picture of himself in bathing trunks on the wall*. Now clearly he has a nice, enviable body. But he doesn’t have bulging muscles, because he doesn’t take steroids. A good case-in-point, I think.

Or consider women body builders. Some of them have almost grotesque bulges of muscles. And they all claim they don’t take steroids. Bullsh*t, one women (touting the benefits of exercise) once said on TV. There simply is no other way for a woman to get muscles like that. That last one is a rather extreme example I know. But still.

Well, am I wrong?

:):):slight_smile:

*Why would a dentist put such a revealing picture of himself on his wall? Is he trying to pick up female patients? He has since taken it down. But I have to wonder, and ask.

2

I believe you are wrong. At least when you say that no-one could.

Statues and art from the ancient world clearly show exceedingly muscular specimens in an age that had no access to steroids. I’ve observed exceedingly strong-looking people in occupations that involve physical work. Abs an muscle definition seems to be more of an issue of bodyfat percentage than muscle size.

I am not sure if such muscles is available to everyone from just exercise and nutrition though. Women mostly have low testosterone than men, which makes muscle development harder. Chemical enhancement may well provide a path for people who just don’t have the genes for large muscles, and a shortcut for those who do.

3

The effect of steroids, generally speaking (IMHO), is not so much to let many people become impossibly well-muscled, but rather to increase the frequency of well-muscled people in the general population.

A body like Michelangelo’s David is obviously possible without steroids, and represents maybe one or two standard deviations to the good for a twentysomething man. (In case it’s not clear, I’m making these numbers up on the spot).

But human physiology and endocrinology vary tremendously, and very young men with naturally high levels of testosterone have somewhere between four and twelve times as much testosterone as very young men with low levels of testosterone. (These numbers I’m not making up).

And the numbers I just linked to probably represent a realistic range for the general population; in other words, it’s likely that real outliers (maybe 1 in 100,000 or 1 in 1,000,000) have significantly higher testosterone levels than the link suggests.

In addition, I’d bet folding money that there’s similar variation from man to man in their response to a given level of testosterone.

Anecdote I: I used to be a (barely) national-level bicycle road racer. I was a junior (under-18 competitor) in the late '80s and early '90s, and few of my cohort were doping (beyond prescribed amphetamines). There was a huge range in leg musculature; some guys had the legs of high-school cross-country runners while others strode on tree trunks. But there was little correlation between leg muscle volume and either short-term speed (fast-twitch muscle fibers) or long-term speed (slow-twitch muscle fibers/aerobic capacity). There was some correlation, but not much.

Anecdote II: a woman I dated a year ago is a former competitive bodybuilder. Now, she looks like a “normal,” well-muscled woman; her arms are toned but less so than, say, Michelle Obama’s. But when she was competing (about ten years ago) she was extremely muscular for a woman. If you look at a range of women who are “natural” (non-steroid/HGH-using) bodybuilders, she looked about like that. So IMHO and in my experience, most muscular female body builders who claim to be “natural” are probably telling the truth.

Another woman I dated is a competitive distance runner. She has a subtle-but-clear six-pack. And I am as certain as one can be that neither woman ever took testosterone.

Also, keep in mind that body dysmorphia and other factors can be extraordinarily powerful motivators. Some people excercise intensively because they are compelled to, and such a compulsion can have profound effects on one’s appearance.

I’ll likely never have a six-pack, though in my twenties I was close. Many men and women who do have six-packs got there by having good endocrinological levels/response, strong willpower and maybe a hint (or more) of compulsion.

But even giant dudes aren’t necessarily juicing. Some of them certainly are, and as a result there are more of these guys around than there used to be. But it would be foolish, IMHO, to underestimate the range of human variety.

4

It is a fact there is an upper limit on what can reasonably achieved without the use of performance enhancing drugs. A case in point - look at competitions such as Natural Mr Olympia. The organisations behind this competition profess themselves to be PED free. These athletes get tested rigorously - you’d be a fool to say drugs aren’t a feature of the lifestyle or competition for some of the athletes, however assume at least most are clean.

This is likely the upper level ‘swole’ ripped muscle build you can develop without PED use. Then consider the Mr Olympia - no drug testing (at least in competition cycle)

…it’s obviously a different kettle of fish. However the non-PED user is still probably significantly larger than most people would imagine.

Although, the most physically gifted individuals probably don’t move into bodybuilding, but probably compete in Olympic level sports where drug testing is also highly rigorous. Some of the Olympic wrestlers and weightlifters are heavily muscled men who still maintain sub-8% bodyfat levels, demostrate fantastic physiques, and they face year round drug testing. Example, a chinese top level lifter -

So if you are naturally gifted and you dedicate your life you can achieve a physique that is surely considered by 99% of the population to be excessively muscled. An example is ex-olympic wrestler and current MMA fighter, yoel romero -

If that is not big enough for you, I don’t know what it.

On a more general note, there is a huge division in the sports world as to what is a PED and what is not. Some codes are extremely strict and pretty much only allow caffeine and protein, anything else is banned. Some codes or orgs test only in competition, so you can cycle all the hard PED’s you want, as long as you are clean come competition time. Then there are treatments like TRT (test replacement) and HGH (human growth hormone) that might be considered medical treatments, or might be considered performance enhancement treatments. Further, there is always talk about ‘designer’ drugs that are new and fresh and offer advantages similar to traditional PED’s i.e. anabolic steroids but fly under the radar of the current testing regimes to some degree. Many even push the agenda these are state-sponsored efforts from various scallywag governments.

So the categorisation of ‘steroid user’ and ‘non-steroid user’ is far more nuanced than it was in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Despite that, i still think you are wrong, and that an individual can develop a heavily muscled physique without the use of any drugs or treatments.

5

If you work out in a gym long enough, it becomes easily apparent who is on the “juice.” Their muscles look out-of-proportion to the rest of their body.

Just last week I saw a young gentleman who was quiet obviously on the juice. He was short with a smallish build, but had huge shoulders & triceps. He looked quiet ridiculous, to be honest.

To answer the OP, you can get muscular by lifting weights. But you won’t get huge muscles no matter how much you work out. For evidence, look at the difference between the competitions for regular bodybuilders and the competitions for steroid free-bodybuilders. It’s night-n-day.

6

From my link above: “In adult men, testicular or adrenal tumors or androgen abuse might be suspected if testosterone levels exceed the upper limit of the normal range by more than 50%.”

Yeah. So it wouldn’t be all that extraordinary for a healthy man to have testosterone levels 50% higher than the upper limit listed in the linked article, or 18 times the lower limit for “normal” men. Testicular or adrenal tumors can reasonably cause a man to have testosterone levels 24 times the lower limit. It seems likely that throughout most of human history, a few living men have had the potential to be extraordinarily muscular even without exogenous testosterone.

I can’t prove it, but I’d bet that with enough effort and willpower, a nontrivial subset of young men (10-15 percent?) could achieve a physique much like Chris Pratt recently did.

7

Yes; I think Carrot Top is a great example of this. I’d speculate that any psychologist or psychiatrist, given the opportunity to diagnose Carrot Top, would quickly decide that body dysmorphia is an issue for him. (In addition to what I suspect is steroid and HGH use, he’s had extensive plastic surgery).

IMHO, Carrot Top has the look you’re talking about, but he is also not as muscular as some of the rigorously-tested natural bodybuilders another poster linked to above. Again, the span of human variation is huge.

And just to be clear, I’m in no way suggesting that all bodybuilders have body dysmorphia.

8

It depends on how big you’re talking about. Ripped and 20" arms? Almost certainly steroids, including past steroid use. Also, the actors that go from not impressive at all to very impressive in a short amount of time, e.g., Chris Hemsworth, definitely steroids.

9

Are you talking about bodybuilders, or are you talking about men who are actually fit and in good shape? Around here, I see a lot of young men going around shirtless in the summer, and let’s just say that they have a very good reason to be going shirtless. But none of them look like bodybuilders.

And heck, I haven’t even put in any particular effort at all in getting a nice body, but when I started exercising a lot more a few years ago, even I started getting a barely-perceptible six-pack. I’m sure that if I really wanted to, I could get a body like those young men I see. It’s just not a priority for me.

10

Take a look at these photos ofGeorg Hackenschmidt from ~1900.

Charles Atlas, “The World’s Most Perfectly Developed Man.”

Peter Lupus from his days at Muscle Beach.

And, of course, Jack LaLanne, who lived to be 96.

All those photos are at least 50 years old, and Hackenschmidt and Atlas were in their prime before steroids had even been discovered.

11

Some of that bulging muscle look for body builder competition is achieved via low bodyfat and dehydration - those guys don’t look that cut on a daily basis.

There is also one known mutation in mammals (and at least one additional suspected one) that leads to greater than usual muscle development, leading to “double-muscle” cattle breeds and documented in a few human beings. It is likely that both some unusual physiques in the ancient world as well as some human body-builders today posses this trait and thus can achieve naturally what most others need artificial drugs to get.

No one knows how common these traits are in the human population. We haven’t really looked for them before. They could be 1 in a million or as common as, say, blue eyes. We just don’t know. It would be interesting to test natural body builders for that trait (perhaps even some of the unnatural body-builders, too).

12

Perhaps not the best example, seeing how Mr. Romero has tested positive for ibutamoren and was consequently handed a six-month suspension.

13

That’s the pic of a guy that’s done steroids. So obvious. Especially those traps.

14

There absolutely does exist certain people with extraordinary genetics. Most professional bodybuilders are examples of such genetic freaks. Even without the aide of steroids, just about all professional bodybuilders would look much more muscular than an average gym goer. It’s not all about the drugs, they are elite members of their sport and the drugs go hand in hand with the genetics.

I guarantee that they’re are guys out there who look like they are juicing but in fact are all natural. I’ve seen quite a few myself over the years. Some people simply hit the jackpot, genetically. This is why I try to stay out of the “is he on steroids?” questions. For one, even if you’re right you’re never going to know and two, you very well could be wrong.

15

My training partner is like this. He’s just naturally muscular, and extremely strong (strongest guy I’ve ever met, adjusted for body weight). He trains hard, but he also puts on muscle much faster than the rest of us. He he used 'roids, he’d be ‘yuge.’

16

Yeah, those guys are all very muscular, but none of them look like they’d be able to make it as modern bodybuilders. Charles Atlas is the most striking to me - he’s certainly a fit, muscular guy, but seeing him on a body building stage today would make me wonder what the joke is. But his physique used to be one that drove a major fitness brand (maybe the first modern one depending on how you count it)! I think the fact that he used to be ‘strong enough to inspire body builders’ to ‘doesn’t even look like he belongs on stage’ is pretty telling.

17

Part of the difference is that none of those guys dieted down to modern contest levels, nor would they ever consider it. They’re not as big as a competitive heavyweight bodybuilder who is on near constant steroids, but they’re pretty big and often amazingly strong.

18

Natural bodybuilders generally top out around 200 lbs competition weight. Any bodybuilder that’s much beyond that is likely either too fat or is using anabolic steroids.

19

You are correct, but it’s not steroids. It’s eating and genetics. I know people who don’t workout at all or take steroids who are just naturally muscular. I’m pretty big myself and can diet down without losing any mass but I generally stay a little chubby. I know other grown men who have less muscle than my 9 year-old daughter. Anyone who is an elite pro bodybuilder does use steroids, but a lot of the “before” pictures of those type of guys are already in elite condition even before drugs and sometimes before doing any serious training. Everyone has different potential.

20

I’d say your wrong, due to your inexperience. The worst thing about steroids is the average person learning about their existence - it means people claiming almost anyone more fit than they are must be on steroids (i.e. cheating at life) and thus gives them an excuse not to work out and a little self-back-pat saying “I may be flabby, but I’m honest.”

Do some people use steroids? Sure. Could you, a non-bodybuilder reliably make that call? Unlikely, even after studying the photos posted. A lot of people that inexperienced people would point out as “obviously” using steroids would make most bodybuilders laugh. The accusation pretty much just means the person has visible abs.