Moderator’s Notes: Easy folks. This thread’s still in MPSIMS. Don’t make me move it. If y’all are gotta give ** Suspenderzzz** a hard time over her perceived attitude towards—well, I dunno quite what—there’s a whole forum for that kinda stuff in which y’all are free to start a new thread. It need not be here, and in fact, won’t be tolerated here.
Thanks.
Please don’t see it that way, many people were probably jarred by your poking fun of their lifestyle, and were disagreeing with your views of it.
That’s a weird way of getting rid of someone: “Hey wanna get hitched?” I doubt this is the case if he kept trying to get in touch with you afterwards. Ps you can’t call him mentally ill for changing his mind.
Now here’s what’s funny to me. This issue is very much a problem for married people themselves. People grow and change and become slightly different people over time. If one person grows and changes and the other remains stagnant, then you’ve grown apart and have a problem. You could stay and get to know the person again. To me part of what relationship of marriage is the hard work of always compromising, I can see where you’d be scared of that, but in the end, only you are responsible for WHAT you have compromised. One of the other parts is the give and take. It seems like you have to decide what you’ve been taking and how much you been giving.
XJETGIRLX. This is the last inflammatory comment I will respond to. Then I will turn my attention to more important things. I don’t mention my kid a lot in order to protect his privacy. He knows I’m into this forum stuff, and one time when I told him that I posted something about him, he cringed with embarassment. He doesn’t want me to put his personal business (or my interpretaion of it) out in public. He’s also not that little anymore – almost 19. Teenagers are easily embarrassed by their parents. I am still young enough at heart (if not in years) to remember that feeling like it was yesterday and to respect it in my kid. Secondly, at least one person on this board knows my true identity (and I his), so you can understand how the privacy issue takes on even more importance. Have a good, all.
Suspenderzzz, you ask why y’all can’t “compromise”, and then you say this:
and this:
Those quotes don’t seem to me to be in the spirit of compromise, but rather, they seem to ask why he can’t compromise what he now seems to want in order for things to remain as you want them to. That’s an understandable feeling (I’d be annoyed & confused if a man suddenly changed his mind about committment) but how can you expect him to compromise when you don’t seem to wish to?
I can dig why you’re confused about this turnaround, but perhaps his reasons aren’t nefarious & perhaps he’s perfectly mentally stable; it could be that he’s been turning the issue over in his brain for a while & he’s simply changed his mind about what he would like out of a relationship.
You certainly have the right to ask why that is, of course, because it directly involves you. For my part, I
because, well, I accept that people do indeed change their minds about fundamental issues. I don’t think that there’s anything inherently wrong with you wanting things to remain as they are, yet I don’t think that there’s anything inherently wrong with him deciding that he’d like to become, in his words, more “settled”. It sucks, but sometimes folks change of their own accord - it’s not always about pressure from outside sources or selling out or a mental breakdown.
As for why some folks on the board seem irritated with you: Like I said in my previous post: I really don’t think that many folks are irked simply by your decision to remain a free agent. I suspect they’re annoyed because they’ve gotten the feeling from your posts that you’re looking down your nose at their lifestyles, ones with which they’re happy.
Yes, some of this is deliberately hurtful and inflammatory. For that, I’m sorry - that can’t help the situation. But, for some of the people in this forum, your OP was equally hurtful. Please understand that many of us are happily middle class. We drive SUVs and do carpool. We wash each other dishes and take turns making the bed. We pay morgages and electric bills and work in the home and outside the home and raise kids and dogs and vegetables. Some of us even are housewives, Mr. Moms and surburban dwellers. We’re happy with the choices we’ve made, however “comformist” they may be. Did you ever think that sometimes the norm is the norm because it’s not a bad way to go?
Are you upset at the response because we’re “pro-marriage”, because we’re ultra conservative [which is never been a word I would apply to this society], or because we think, for a large part, that you are being unfair? Is it fair to assume because we disagree with you that we are irrational, traditional conformists who don’t really understand the issue?
Now, I’m trying to not be insulting, because obviously you and I disagree. But if you’re so upset at him changing, but we’re being black and white by suggesting you leave, why are you asking? You want him to just change back, without compromise to the man you thought he used to be. You said you’ve only been on again, off again - maybe you don’t his deep desires as well as you thought you did. Maybe he’s been fooling himself into thinking that this relationship was enough. Maybe he’s just decided to stop pretending. And your response has been how very unfair it is to you that he would want something that a huge part of the general population enjoys. How dare he make you reconsider what you really want. This has nothing to do with his changing - this is about you not wanting to really consider where this is going. So, it is black and white. He should no more have to pretend to be a part of something he doesn’t really believe in than you should own a co-op. You expect that he’ll just change his mind back. How is that better than him just changing his mind in the first place? If you decide that your bohemian morals are more important than him, let him go.
BTW - if he all of sudden decided that marriage was not for him, we might poor baby more, and give you more hugs, but we’d still say, accept or let go. That’s the way real life works. Sorry. And we’re not saything there’s something wrong with you for not wanted to get married. We’re just pointing out that there’s nothing wrong with him for wanting to. There is a BIG difference.
So here’s an opinion. Sorry it doesn’t agree with yours.
Please don’t jump to the conclusion that my post was meant to be inflammatory. I simply wondered how a parent (regardless of the age of the child) could even delve into such an issue without taking into consideration the child’s welfare, feelings, needs, etc. It just didn’t seem as though he had entered into your reasoning at all. And while I agree with you that 19 isn’t that little, he’s still young enough to be affected by how you live your life and the choices you make. My only point in bringing it up is that all of your ideas and viewpoints you’ve posted seemed to be based on an incredibly selfish foundation. All fine and dandy if you don’t plan on ever bringing anyone else into your life, but it just doesn’t work that way when you’ve got people who depend on you.
Well, if a person changes, there is nothing you can do about it. Nothing that isn’t immoral, I mean. Similarly, he can not change the way you are. People change and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing you can do to stop it.
There are no sock puppets permitted in this board, and the board is fairly diverse.
No one here is saying that you should marry the guy, stop whining, and go cook dinner. They are saying that while you believe that marriage is not good, marriage for them is good. In your previous posts you were mocking their lifestyle. When people do that to you, don’t you feel sad/mad?
You seem to have had a good relationship until now. You know life is not perfect. You must realize things and people change. For whatever reason, your boyfriend’s attitude toward an important issue changed. If you two can not reach a compromise or solve the argument, then perhaps it is time to finish the relationship.
For you love is not about cleaning the dishes of your beloved, and that is fine… for you. The poster has his own definition of love, and is lucky enough to have found someone that so far shares that definition with him.
If you are able to save the relationship, good for you both. I second the poster who said that keeping him with false expectations would be wrong. Tell him that you still don’t want marriage, and don’t give him hope.
People are asking you to take another look at marriage. It is not as if suddenly, once you sign that paper, you will wake up with an apron around your waist and a lawnmower will appear out of nowhere. Marriage (and living together) is what you make of it.
[quote]
**
Of course, he and I have had this discussion (the one time after we semi broke up and then met one more time to discuss this whole thing in great length). Problem is, he really can’t come up with a good argument why things can’t remain the same as they are now. He just keeps saying he wants something more settled, perhaps buy a co-op or something (he’s not to the point where he wants to move to the suburbs yet, but the way things are going, this could be next). See, I can’t buy a co-op. It would be all him. Everything would be his, and I would be a Kept Woman with no autonomy and nothing of my own. I don’t think I can do it. **
[quote]
He just doesn’t want things to be the same. He wants to try something different, what is wrong with that? Even if he buys the co-op, he can still add you as a co-owner, can’t he? Do you have your own car, your own savings, your own money? Do you have a job? Don’t you have clothes that you buy? Aren’t some of the furniture in your current apartment already yours? Then you aren’t a Kept Woman, and you will not become one if you two marry. If you become one, it would be your decision.
Changing points of view is usually not a sign of disorders. It is part of human life.
You don’t want to get marry, fine. He wants to marry, though. Either one of you change their attitudes, or the issue will keep surfacing again and again until it disrupts the relationship completely.
I am not even sure where to begin.
I suppose I should appreciate your comments as well, variety and all. It is an interesting irony that to me, your remarks are also quite predictable. I am a New Yorker, and I know many just like you. I believe you are a beatnik fundamentalist.
Your Deadly Sins are Labor, Discipline, Self-Denial, and Open-Mindedness. Your Cardinal Virtues are Sloth, Scorn, Fanaticism, and Self-Indulgence. You flee the appearance not of Evil but the Consequences of your Actions. Your religion exploits the very bourgeois it demands you detest: without their productive labor you would not be able to sustain your lifestyle. Your holy books may vary from cult to cult, but their message is the same: flee, flee at all costs the consequences of existence in a civilized society. Flee the costs of freedom.
And what of those who don’t agree with you? Conformists. Or those who, perhaps like your ex-boyfriend, realize that they are but servants to a sterile ideology and consequently come to their senses? Mentally ill. Or the rest of us, who question your motives? Sock puppets, “conservative,” or “skewed.”
I believe that you are truly terrified of adventure and genuine autonomy. Ironically, you invoke your arid and conformist principle of “autonomy” as a shield in order to protect you from change, from evolution, from adventure. Whatever doesn’t pass your prejudicial muster, must ipso facto compromise your autonomy.
I don’t pity you, Suspenderzz, you have made your decisions, given yourself wholesale to your philosophy, and evidently enjoy your life, such as it is. I truly feel bad for your son. By teaching him prejudice you are depriving him of the opportunity to form lasting friendships with people, say, from suburbia, or New Jersey, or in any class or walk of life that you consider beneath you. I hope that one day your son will discover true autonomy, that is to say, the ability to ditch his classist stereotypes and judge people, and ways of life, for himself.
This sentence is curious:
Holiday season? Perhaps. Perhaps he was stricken because at age 41, he lives at the bequest of his parents in an economically abusive lease, and it’s very bloody likely that other than writing poetry for cafes to impress grungy college students, has nothing to show for his life.
I can’t say that I blame him, if this were the case. Most people discover that basing their identity on scorn and contempt for others rather than forging their own in the unknown is spiritually unsatisfying. I am often surprised that it takes people as long to discover this as it does.
Perhaps I am misreading you, so please forgive me if I am wrong. This sounds to me like, “See, I don’t want to get a real job and join society that I have been taught to despise. Since I am unwilling to pay the social price for autonomy, that is to say, labor, my only alternative would be to surrender all of my autonomy to him. This is unacceptable.”
Then why would he come crawling back over and over again after you dumped him?
Is it easier for you to accept a conspiracy theory than the fact that he has changed? Or that perhaps his decision was a long, long time in coming? Or perhaps he was pressured to conform to your fundamentalist lifestyle lest he lose all of his cache?
For what it’s worth, I have gone through two fundamental changes like this, one of a romantic nature. Though they seemed sudden and odd at the time, a little bit of further reflection made me realize that I had been dropping signs for a long time, and that the changes were in fact long overdue.
For the record, I am an unmarried 24 year old male and native New Yorker, angling for a career that will take me all over the world. Like many of us have already said, your decision to marry or not to marry is absolutely not the subject of our objections. If marriage isn’t right for you, then you will save yourself a lot of pain if you avoid it. But you can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
Sorry, UncleBeer, I didn’t see your warning before I posted. It is probably too judgmental and harsh for this forum, which I regret.
::waves companionably to Suspenderzzz who makes a lot of sense::
In fact…
So…how’re ya doin’? 
You do understand that had you not masked the original problem with incendiary remarks, this thread may not have gotten off on so many tangents, right?
You’re upset because he’s not committed to being uncommitted? What? You want him to take an anti-marriage vow?
Entering into a commitment IS a fundamental issue, just as the question of having children is. In each of these instances, there IS no compromise, which is precisely why they are “deal breakers.” Your options: One party either changes his mind or you break up. Period.
Your BF changed his mind about something fundamental. Does that make him a jerk? No. Because you didn’t make a commitment to him based on it.
Had he married you, THEN changed his mind, he would have breached a very serious legal and moral COMMITMENT to you. He has made no vow to you, at your insistence. By extension, that means he doesn’t owe you anything.
Keep in mind that if you found another poet tomorrow, there is nothing to prevent you from dumping your BF. (And, BTW, we would have supported you in doing so because it’s okay to dump a boyfriend. It’s NOT okay to dump your spouse.) If you decide today to sever your BF’s relationship with your son, he would have absolutely no recourse. Can’t you see that that is an incredible emotional risk for someone to take? He’s investing quite a bit by loving you and your child with no guarantee of any return. In fact, you deride the concept of fidelity and family. And perhaps, just perhaps, he’s decided he doesn’t want to risk losing his heart to someone who scorns the concept of commitment.
He’s cutting his losses, so to speak. Which is perfectly fair. And understandable.
That’s all right. You didn’t do it intentionally.
Ooooookay. I thought that’s what it was, but I wasn’t sure. I think you’ve untied the knot in one fell swoop, and for that I wish to thank you. The main thing to remember now is that it’s all going to be all right. Okay? 
What the fuck is he talking about??
As I read this thread, I had a hundred things whizz thru my mind that I should say to you, some agreed with you, most were going to be friendly reminders that marriage is what you make of it, there are no rules.
But as I read on, it just kept ripping out old feelings. You see, I was in a very similar situation, except I was the guy. She was very much tied to her house, to a solitary way of life, very much oppossed to any kind of arguing, cohabitating (long term), or family problems. I wanted marriage. She couldn’t change and I couldn’t settle for what she offered. It was a long and painful split.
I’m putting this in bold in hopes you’ll read it. I saw her while I was shopping the other week. I was standing in a line and she was standing next to me. She didn’t notice me at first, but when she did, she looked at me. We were strangers. We no longer know each other. It’s been over two years since we’ve even spoken. Not so much from anger, but because to do so was just too painful and complicated.
That’s the best advice I can offer. Be prepared to one day look in your soulmate’s eyes and not recognize them. I know it’s unfair and it sucks things can’t go back the way they were, but it’s the truth and it’s what we all have to deal with at some point. This is the price for maintaining your values.
My pleasure. No job too small.
Okay, not that my opinion is going to matter much buried on the bottom of the second page, and not that I have anything too new to say…just maybe a different way of saying it, so here goes.
Suspenderzzz:
He changed. People change. It happens. You were right to break up with him; you two no longer want the same thing. Move on, if there is no middle ground to be found.
Several posters have taken offense to comments in your OP, which has steered the focus of the thread off course somewhat. While the SDMB is a comparatively liberal forum, it is also a very diverse one–and quite huge. That a large number of people would take offense at being part of a population you mock is to be expected. Tolerance of diversity is valued here–we have just about every demographic you can imagine–and judgements, as you yourself have felt, get some hairs on the back of the neck prickling. The reactions shown here are not unexpected.
All that said…from an oldie of the SDMB (since 1997), welcome aboard (3 months late…)! You are a well-spoken (er…written) individual who offers a perspective that will be interesting and educational for me, at least, to listen to (and I mean that sincerely, not facetiously!).
[sub]not that it matters, but for the record, I’m married and love it. but that’s my own path of happiness and fulfillment. [/sub]
He is getting older and even somewhat Peter Pannish men like your friend start to take stock of their lives in their 40’s as they approach the the crest of life’s hill, and survey the landscape below regarding where they have been and where they are going. All sorts of things will go through his mind like what his legacy will be, and who does he want to grow old with and who will be there holding his hand when he dies, among other things.
It is in these times that people look to the nature of the relationships they have crafted, and in this context some seek to move on to a more satisfying relationships, and others happily or unhappily “settle” for where they are. He doesn’t want to settle and you should not begrudge him this option in an open and unconstrained relationship.
While emotionally close there is no real committment in your relationship to stay with him if he gets sick or needs help or stay with him through fights and disagreements. He wants both of you to bind your lives together in something more adhesive than “until I get bored with or angry at you”. Let him go so he can find his bliss, and yes it is quite possible (practically a guarantee actually, if he is really as much of a catch as you describe) some woman will snap him up like a Triscuit, and yes it is quite likely you will be banished to the far periphery of his life by the new wife, but a committed relationship is where he wants to be, where he needs to be, and letting him go is the right thing to do.
Hon, it’s not pro-marriage bias–I couldn’t give two cents if you get married or not; it’s what makes you happy that counts. I don’t think that there’s anyone here who has unconditionally said “quit complaining and marry the guy.” I do think, however, that people have expressed reservations about the reasons for your desired singlehood. This is because you managed to inadvertantly slam a good chunk of the people on this board.
If he doesn’t want things to be like they were, then having them like they were isn’t a compromise.
You said it yourself; he’s changed his mind on a fundamental issue. It happens. However, if he really wants a more committed relationship, and you really don’t want the relationship to grow more committed, then there is no feasible, healthy compromise. You can’t be half-married. One person can’t be married while the other isn’t–marriage is a mutual contract that simply isn’t valid if both parties don’t agree with it.
I have a friend who currently has this problem. She hopes to marry her current SO. Her SO doesn’t want kids. She does. She thinks that she can convince him, and that it isn’t really an issue in their relationship. But, just like marriage, you really can’t go halfway. You can’t have half a kid. You can’t have half a marriage.
Ang you can’t expect him to change his mind any more than he can expect you to do the same. It doesn’t matter if you agreed before, because you’re not living last month, or last year. You’re living now.
Things have changed. Move on.. If he changes his mind later, he’ll know where to find you.
But isn’t that just a boring inversion? I mean, it’s the exact same thing in the opposite direction. I don’t know what you should do and asking people who don’t know you (or him) seems a little disingenuous. Having a conversation about the merits and downsides of marriage is a valid discussion, but here, you seem to be lining up anonymous supporters, or critics (as the case may be).
It seems there are a million options to the reasons you’ve provided for saying “no”. Marriage is not, by definition, bourgeois. To say all marriage is bourgeois and boring is to deny the creativity of the human heart in daring to do it differently. If you ended up in a bourgeois, boring marriage, it would say more about you and your partner than the institution itself. Rent controlled apartment? Sublet. Tell him to sublet. Ask him if you can compromise and get married but still live seperately. There are no rules. You could even tell him that this has thrown you for a loop and you’d like a year to think about it. Two years. Five years. Whatever. You didn’t come to see marriage this way overnight and it would stand to reason that if you changed your mind, it would also take some time. In the meantime you could keep things as they are.
I agree with much of the sentiment expressed here though- it seems you’ve got a narrow, dim view of marriage. That’s doesn’t seem open minded. Maybe it’s time to look at that. Best of luck with your decision.
Maeglin, that was beautiful.