You said, however, that ‘in all probability’ there would be a murder charge. Actually, there is almost NO probability that the person will be charged with anything, let alone murder.
You were all over the place, going on about murder, bail, etc… Why not throw in child abuse as well, in case the perp is under 18?
And, I think a million dollar bail is pretty rare, which, again, militates against the ‘all probability’ factor.
And, the Zimmerman thing was racial/political/totallyoutsidethepale, not a home thing, so, as a general rule, whatever you said doesn’t cover a home defense scenario.
As a matter of fact, you are wrong, on so very, very many points on gun law.
I’ve heard that, but unless there are statistics to back it up, I have to think it’s anti-gun bullshit.
artemis - As others have pointed out, most of what you said is factually incorrect. The OP or their friend should consult a local attorney for advice on the legal ramifications of a justified shooting.
First one’s rock salt. Second round’s live.
Actually, I think his experiment shows why rock salt is good to use (if you believe guns are crime deterrents and not for creating bloody carcasses).
The point of rock salt is it’s supposed to penetrate a little bit and burns like hell. If it doesn’t penetrate, it’s worthless.
Not at all. Think of it from the perspective on someone on the other end of the gun. They have no idea what ammo is being used.
If some irate homeowners takes out his shotgun and fires in my direction. I feel the impact of something hitting me. I am not thinking, “he must be using rock salt, so I have nothing to worry about.” No, I am thinking, “Jesus f—ing christ, this dude is shooting at me and thank g-d he just missed. I better get the f— out of here.”
Wow. The misinformation and outright stupidity in this thread is epic.
For a non gun debate thread, there sure is a lot of sanctimonious grandstanding about whether your friends should even have a gun.
Whether they should or should not, or are ready to, is a discussion for them and a professional in their area.
That’s OK. A lot off people don’t. That’s why you point them to a firearms professional in their area instead of pulling things out of your ass.
No, they are not.
False. All firearms require skill and training.
Hollywood myth or redneck humor. Neither is a valid argument for getting a shotgun.
Most semi-auto pistols make the same sound, and many shotguns make none.
Your friend lives in Texas. This is a gun-friendly part of the world, and it will be easy for him to find a certified firearms instructor.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/LicenseRegistration/InstOptInList.pdf
For a home defense gun that husband and wife will access, a handgun is adequate, and easier to handle and store. I recommend a .357 revolver for simplicity and effectiveness, but they should listen to the recommendation of their instructor after he talks with them about their needs, capabilities, environment and more.
For concealed carry, they absolutely must take a course and pass it before even being eligible. It’s a minimum 10 hour course, covering many things including the laws regarding shoot/no shoot decisions, and how to handle the aftermath of a shooting.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/faqs/index.htm
All of the bullshit above regarding charges, bail, murder and so forth is just someone who likes to see themselves type. These are issues to discuss with an instructor and attorney, not the uninformed.
Securing a weapon is the easiest part of this equation. A quick access safe can be put on a dresser, in a drawer, or in a closet for easy access while keeping guns away from children or unauthorized individuals.
http://www.gunvault.com/
Still want a shotgun? http://www.barska.com/Biometric_Safe-Quick_Access_Biometric_Rifle_Safe_by_Barska.html
Please advise your friend to contact a professional instructor in Texas to better advise them on their needs and expectations in this very serious matter.
I would definitely go for really good instruction on the weapon, not the Mickey Mouse courses that seem to be so prevalent in the U.S. where the instructor shouldn’t be in charge of a lawnmower, let alone a lethal weapon.
So it would pay to ask around instead of just jumping into the first course that he comes across.
Also totally agree with safe stowage, not just because there are children in the house, but people can and do break into houses when no ones in.
I would recommend a 12 gauge shotgun, 18" barrel. The original “point and click” interface. No matter where in the US you are, getting charged with any crime while shooting an intruder in your home is extremely rare.
No state requires you to retreat in your home. “Stand your ground” laws like the one in Florida also don’t require retreat ANYWHERE you are lawfully present.
Insurance.
Another person recommending a shotgun who has likely never fired one.
If you cap someone who was clearly trying to get away, you’re going to have some interesting questions from the nice men with badges.
Except idiots like Zimmermann are pushing those laws way past their intent.
I’ll bet I’ve fired more guns that you have. But personal attacks aside, most knowledgeable gun people believe that for a minimally trained person, a shotgun is the most effective home defense weapon. Buckshot won’t penetrate walls, the gun is forgiving for novice shooters, and it absolutely fierce at close range.
[QUOTE=jz78817]
If you cap someone who was clearly trying to get away, you’re going to have some interesting questions from the nice men with badges.
[/quote]
I assumed the question meant good faith defense against home intruders, not as an excuse to cover for a revenge killing.
[QUOTE=jz78817]
Except idiots like Zimmermann are pushing those laws way past their intent.
[/QUOTE]
The Zimmermann thread is in GD, but this comment in a thread asking for factual responses shows the bias that you have against personal protection and your ignorance of SYG laws. If the facts show that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him, then force was justified, SYG law or not.
Then you probably shouldn’t be offering advice.
That doesn’t usually deter anyone when it comes to firearms. Both the “guns are murder machines that will leap out of the safe and kill your family” crowd and the “I like to play video games, so here’s my expert opinion on guns!” crowd seem to consider themselves subject matter experts.
unless “won’t penetrate walls” has been re-defined as “blows through 4 layers of drywall AND 3/4” of plywood" then maybe you’d be correct.
In order: First, jz78817 has linked to an interesting video; I’ll link to this article and this one, at the Box O’ Truth concerning buckshot, interior walls, and penetration. Not holy writ, but food for thought. From the first cite:
Second, I don’t know the answer to these questions, and I hope that a lawyer can come by and give us some guidance (I know you’re not our attorney, we’re not your client, this isn’t legal advice, yadda, yadda.), but I can think of plenty of situations where a shooting can occur by a homeowner, yet possibly could be found to not be a privileged use of deadly force. Criminal lawyers and LEOs can think of plenty of others. Say, a criminal has broken into your home, and you see he’s holding a weapon. I think it’s easy to see the criminal has the ability and opportunity to put you in jeopardy of serious bodily injury, so you can use deadly force to defend yourself. But what if the criminal retreats, and you perceive that he’s not retreating to leave the area, but instead is retreating to cover? Must you wait to return fire until the criminal starts shooting at you from that cover? EDIT: If you fire at a retreating criminal, in good faith that you are still in jeopardy, are you going to face criminal liability?
Anyways, I hope it’s apparent that ‘self-defense with deadly force’ situations, even by a homeowner within a home, may result in criminal or civil liability for a homeowner. Which is why many commentators recommend the shooter retain legal counsel and consult with them before discussing with police the details of the shooting. (For an explanation of what to say to the police and when, here’s an article quoting Massad Ayoob’s Five Things checklist.)
Finally, (and help me out if I’m wrong, for I’m not about to wade through that 100 page morass of a Zimmerman/Martin thread), but if Zimmerman had started the confrontation with Martin by committing a battery upon him—say by grabbing his arm and telling Martin to wait here for the cops—would Zimmerman use of deadly force still be privileged, even though he was getting his ass severely kicked? I didn’t think that one could claim the privilege of self-defense if one started the fight, but Florida’s SYG law is wonky enough that this general rule may not apply. BTW, none of this is me claiming that Z did start the fight; I’m just asking a question about whether the privilege of self-defense is available in all situations where the user of deadly force is in jeopardy of serious bodily harm.
I never said to use 00 buck. Even #4 shot would ruin someone’s day at close range.
And it, per the first Box O Truth link I put up, will also go through 6 interior walls. Well, the 00 Buck went through 7, with a few outliers going through 8, so I guess it’s an improvement? At least it’s a whole lot better in that department than using a slug…
Brassfetcher’s summary table of 12 gauge rounds (pdf) lists quite a bit less penetration in bare ballistic gelatin for #4 Buck vs #00 Buck, yet still going over 12 inches. Agreed that it would be a terminal day-ruiner for whoever got hit with the shot column. Still, whether it’s #4 or #000, it’s still going through house walls if you miss with any of the pellets—maybe even if you hit?— and you are responsible for where each and every one of those pellets ends up.
One nice thing about #4 Buck vs. #00 is that, due to the spheres being smaller for #4, you can utilize more of the case volume with #4, and thereby throw more mass downrange, than you can with #00. E.g., Federal’s Premium 3 inch Buckshot #4 load has 41 pellets within it. Each pellet is 20.7 grains in weight, for a total of 848.7 grains. Their #00 Buck load, OTOH, has 15 pellets. Each #00 pellet weighs 53.8 grains, for a total shot column weight of 807 grains, about 5% smaller. Hmmm, I had thought it was more significant than that.