My friend and his wife live in an apartment with their two small children. He is thinking of getting a gun for home defense. I don’t know much about guns but this is what I told him:
Shotguns are generally recommended because they are short range, need less skill and have an intimidating sound.
He and his wife should take a gun safety course at his local community college or gun range. There, he can learn all sorts of important information such as the local self defense laws and how to use and take care of their gun.
If he does get a handgun, he should use frangible or hollow point bullets so that he doesn’t shoot the neighbor through the wall.
He should think very carefully about storage and at the minimum should get a trigger lock or a gun safe. The problem of course is fast access verses safety for the kids.
He and his wife should practice a lot with their gun so that they are effective.
What else should I tell him? As I said, I don’t know much about guns. Those are just the basics of what I have read.
Hollowpoints will go through a wall as easily as round nose ammo.
At home defense distances, there is little spread with the shotgun(1 inch per yard). You still need to aim like a rifle. And buckshot will go right through walls.
Go to a range that rents guns and try out a bunch, everyone is different in what fits their hand and feel right.
The very first thing you should tell him is to sit down and REALLY contemplate this question: Could he actually kill another human being?
Not “threaten another human being with the gun”. But actually point a gun at another person, deliberately pull the trigger, and splatter their guts and brains all over the wall.
Because a lot of people honestly don’t have that ability inside them. They just don’t have it in themselves to do it. And when they buy a firearm for protection, they are making a potentially lethal mistake. Those people often find the gun taken from them and used against them.
Ask him a few more questions as well:
Does he understand that if he does use the gun in self defense and has to actually fire it and kill an intruder, he will in all probability be arrested for murder?
Does he understand that bail for a murder charge can run as high as a million dollars (which means he’d be kissing $100,000 goodbye forever)?
Does he understand that if a shot misses the intruder and goes through a wall and hits a neighbor, he could be sued in civil court (and possibly face criminal charges as well)? And that the family of the intruder he kills will in all probability also sue him in civil court, claiming their “dear, sweet boy” wasn’t a threat to anyone? He’ll kiss a few hundred thousand more dollars goodbye defending himself from those suits.
Does he understand that he MUST both teach his kids gun safety AND keep the gun very securely locked up when not in sue (which will make it difficult to use for defensive purposes)?
If he’s still interested, I second taking a general gun safety course - but (depending on the state he lives in) he should ALSO strongly consider taking a concealed carry course as well. Not because he wants to carry, but because those courses generally do a much better job covering the fine details of federal and state laws on the lawful use of lethal force in self defense.
I am pretty sure I have read that guns kept in the home kill one of the occupants more often than they kill an intruder. No cite, but, then, I’m just about certain I’m not going to wind up dead if your friend gets a gun.
Regarding shotguns and range, skill, and scary sounds. Typical indoor range will be fine for any firearm. All firearms require skill and it is incorrect to believe shotguns require little to no aiming. At typical indoor ranges, the spread is very low and you must still aim. Racking the slide on a pump action shotgun gives away your position and is tactically unwise. One big advantage to a shotgun is that they are cheap, relatively speaking. If you ever use any firearm in self defense, you will likely lose that firearm as evidence, and depending on where you live regardless of your guilt or innocence - you will never get that firearm back. Cheaper can be better.
By all means, take classes. But also read the law for yourself. Ask questions about which parts are unclear. Read them again. Don’t expect anyone to be experts on the law, even law enforcement officers. Gun laws can be very complicated and keeping track of them is not always easy.
All bullets that can penetrate a human and reliably stop a human sized target will be able to go through a wall. Frangible can help but it is not to be relied on. Perhaps subsonic ammo as well but you start to lose effectiveness. Know what’s behind your target.
There are quick access safes for pistols and long guns. They can either be biometric or button combinations. Strong enough to keep out children and keep honest folks honest. Not strong enough for someone to steal if they want to.
Since your friend lives in an apartment, his biggest dilemma (imo) will be storage. The problems are threefold; (1) keeping it from the kids, (2) keeping it from thieves, and (3) keeping it from building maintenance (either theft, or misguided curiosity).
You haven’t mentioned your friend’s location, so I can’t provide any advice regarding local regs, and there could be restrictions in his lease as well.
I suppose the only option for apartment dwellers is a small safe. These range from cheap ones with a key lock to fancier versions that will detect the pattern your fingers take when laid upon a set of buttons (I think these are still sold). Your friend should be operating on the assumption that both his kids, and building maintenance *will *find the gun. There really is no accessible hiding spot that won’t be discovered eventually. The only safe option is to deny access. Sorry to be so blunt, but this really is the only way to approach this.
The whole family will need to be introduced to the weapon, for multiple reasons. A spouse may be interested in learning to shoot along with him, but at the very least must know the weapon well enough to handle and safety it (should it be found where it shouldn’t be). The kids should at least know it on sight (to avoid confusion with toys) and be taught in a low-key manner that it’s a “no-touch” item and adults should be sought out if they encounter it.
Good, reputable gun stores will be very interested in ensuring your friend is guided to both training and legal information on a weapon purchase. He should be very frank with the retailer about his lack of knowledge.
I will post more as I think of it, but right now he really needs to consider his storage options. I think this is the first hurdle that needs cleared.
On edit: Bone beat me to the storage question, and you posted his location. I need to type faster, I guess.
I did a quick Google search, and it doesn’t look like Texas requires completion of a standardized course for a concealed carry license (which is bad, as it means there’s no way to be sure a private instructor is covering the relevant information). Most concealed carry classes in states that require them are more about covering the legalities of self-defense than about showing great shooting proficiency.
Given that, I’d suggest starting off with a general gun safety class, and getting exposure to both shotguns and handguns (although neither are ideal for apartment use, as they’ll shoot through wall).
Unless he lives in a fairly bad area where home invasion is a substantially more present threat than usual, my advice would be: don’t.
Since he has small children, safe storage would be a paramount concern and huge responsibility, and generally speaking the safer your storage, the less available your gun is in an emergency. And while it’s quite possible to store a firearm very safely in a home that contains children, it’s the sort of thing you must never allow yourself to become complacent about. Does he feel that the perceived risk of a home invasion justifies taking on the burden of that vigilance and responsibility? Additionally, if he doesn’t already have a sporting interest in firearms, how likely is he to really engage in regular practice with a weapon?
In short, it’s not something to be done lightly. For most people who aren’t already gun owners, it’s probably not worth it.
If he’s serious about it, though, getting education and training is a good first step.
One thing to remember about a shotgun: it’s not necessary to buy 00 buckshot rounds or slug ammo. In fact, having such ammunition in your shotgun might be construed by a court as intent to kill, which could mean (depending on circumstance) a person being charged with some sort of manslaughter. Smaller shot also means that in the event of penetrating a wall, less damage will ensue on the other side.
I don’t want to use too much jargon but the technical legal term for this is “Talking out of your ass.” There is no probably. If you shot someone in your residence and the investigation shows is was self defense you will not be arrested for murder. That’s why there is an investigation. Especially in Texas where they use the Castle Doctrine.
And obviously you do not know what bail is or how it works. It is not a fine you get it back when you show up for court.
If you end up having to go to a bail bonds man, they sometimes charge about 10% of the amount as a fee. He could have been referring to that.
Personally, if I lived in an apartment, I’d rather get a couple tazers because it is a small area. I’d be much quicker to use a tazer on a stranger in the apartment.
Even if it turned out to be an ‘oops, that was my buddy Joe’ situation… Joe wouldn’t be very likely to end up dead… just really sorry that he came in the apartment without my permission.
Pointing a gun at someone will be regarded by any competent court as intent to kill. You DON"T point a firearm at someone unless you’re justified in killing him! Use of a firearm always constitutes deadly fire in the eyes of the law, regardless of what ammunition its loaded with.
That depends on whether the state uses the Castle Doctrine (which Texas does - but that information wasn’t posted in the initial post I was responding to), and on whether the initial investigators clearly believe it WAS self-defense. Sometimes they don’t, even though it was. And sometimes they do, initially, but change their minds later (just ask George Zimmerman about that).
No one should contemplate getting a gun for self defense without understanding how truly serious shooting another person can be. TV shows make it look simple: blow the bastard away and the cops pat you on the back. Real life’s much messier.
Oh, I understand it just fine. I don’t have a spare million dollars lying around to post bail. Do you? If I was ever hit with a high bail, I’d do what most people do: use a bondsman. And they generally want 10% down, nonrefundable. For a million dollar bail, that’s $100, 000.
I can’t give you any details here, but they can undoubtedly be found via Google. However, here in the Seattle area there were at least five incidents in 2012 where homeowners used their firearms to disable or kill home invaders, and in none of these incidents were they charged with a crime or had to post any sort of bail… Self defense, all the way.
Actually, I do remember the details on one of these - a really weird one. Owner and wife were in their upstairs bedroom, and heard someone breaking thru their French doors from the patio. The owner got his gun, closed and locked the bedroom door, called 911, and then waited on the other side of the room as the intruder came up the stairs and began pounding on the door. The owner called out at least twice that he was armed, but the intruder kept trying to break down the door, and finally succeeded. This was his last act on earth.
They would not make any money if they did business that way. Not many people have 100,000 hanging around either. Their fee is much less than that. But you have to cover the 10% as collateral. People usually put up property as collateral. You only lose that if you bail jump. In many cases courts allow a 10% option. So if you did have 100k to put up you would and not give it to a bondsman. You use them because you don’t have 100k but have property as collateral and can afford their much lower fee. We you are talking that much bail their fee would still be pretty decent but no where near 100k. Just bad business.
I’ll take your word for that, as you do have more first-hand experience with the system than I do. Putting your house up as collateral is still a huge deal, and you’re still going to be out an amount that most people regard as a lot of money.
(By the way, I also want to apologize if my earlier reply to you came off as snarky. Some of the recent gun control threads have left my temper rather frayed. I’m tired of being seen as a deviant because I acknowledge that people like Ted Bundy are real and that my path could cross the boogeyman’s one day, and I’ve chosen to learn how to use a gun defensively.)
The big point I was trying to make to the OP is that there are far more fundamental issues that need to be considered before questions like “shotgun or handgun?” even come up, and too many people don’t consider them before they run out to buy a gun. When cops come to a shooting, they HAVE to consider the possibility of criminal homicide, because that’s what most shootings are. The Bickersons finally had their last lovers’ quarrel. Scumbag A shot Scumbag B over a dime bag of coke. That sort of thing. A true self-defense shooting is actually rare.
Now if the guy holding the gun turns out to be a squeaky clean Boy Scout, and the dead body on the floor belongs to an ex-con with a long rap list who was out on parole for sexual assault, and there’s clearly no association whatsoever between the two, the investigators are going to have a pretty easy time deciding that this was clearly self-defense. No problems there. But what if things aren’t so clean? What if the OP’s friend has had a few minor run-in with he law in the past? What if he’d had a couple of drinks that night? What if the dead body on the floor turns out o belong to an associate (a coworker, perhaps, or one of the neighbors)? Then things could quickly turn… interesting, even though the actual shooting was in fact 100% justified.
And too many folks don’t understand that when you plead self-defense YOU ARE COFESSING TO HOMICIDE. And it’s up to YOU to prove to the justice system that the homicide was justified. “I shot him, but…”. If you can’t convince the investigators, the DA, the jury that your “but…” is worth listening to, you have a problem, because “I shot him” is a complete sentence all on its own. You’ve done 90% of the prosecutor’s work for him! Say hello to your new roommate Bubba.
I want the OP’s friend to truly understand all the downsides to lethal self-defense, because the popular culture only shows the upsides. And those downsides do matter. Look at George Zimmerman, who blew his own life away as well as Trayvon Martin’s when he pulled that trigger. Whether he goes to prison or not, his life is ruined. Had he taken armed self-defense more seriously, perhaps he’d have made a few different choices that night, and everything would have worked out differently.
