I hate guns, but that’s a different story.
Joe_Cool, there’s a big giant difference (I think) with giving a child a spanking and “giving them a taste of the belt”. You were advocating the latter.
Slight hijack here, but CITE? Do you have kids of your own? Are you a licensed child psychologist? An experienced teacher? Any qualifications at all?
Well I started to post a reply before I had read the whole thread and now I am glad I didn’t.
Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor said:
Children are not capable of truly understanding the consequences of mishandling a gun–at least not until they are 12 or 13, and sometimes not even then. Death, their own or that of another person, is just not real to them.
and then this:
BTW–you need one rifle, one shotgun, one pistol, & one set of bows & arrows.
Guns are not ju-ju totems. They are not magic charms. Accumulating a huge arsenal will not make you any safer, as you can only use one at a time. Movie shoot-em-ups notwithstanding.
Joe_Cool said:
My suggestion is not to get rid of them, but instead, take away their mystery.
Well Bosda I am going to have to call the bullshit card on you about children not understanding the consequences of mishandling guns. I had my first gun at the age of 4 a .22 pump that was kept in my room. I had access to ammunition anytime I wanted it. The difference between what Joe_Cool says and how I grew up was that not only where guns not a mystery to me but I actually understood what a guns potential was. I have never done anything stupid with weapons but can remember a kid who was 13 when I was about 9 or 10 that was killed by his brother with their fathers shotgun. I do remember after hearing what had happened thinking to myself how blatently stupid those two were being, so there you go.
As for my advice to Scylla I would say keep the guns, take whatever precautions you deem necesary for your childs protection, and take the time to teach your kid the proper gun handling proceedures but also instill in her the capability of what guns can do. Let me leave you with the assurance that children aren’t as stupid and irrational as some “grownups”.
Keep the guns, sell the kid. They fetch a nice price on the Black Market these days. Much more than when I was a pup . . .[/Raising Arizona]
DaLovin’ Dj
Storing the weapons at a gun club is a good idea, but in my opinion, giving them to someone else (friend or relative) to store isn’t - because it doesn’t really do anything to teach the child about gun safety, nor does it guarentee that the guns are TRULY inaccessable. After all, you may very well go over to that friend’s or relative’s house one day - are you SURE you’ll never take your kid along when you do so? If you do take the child, then you’ve still got a potentially dangerous situation - a naive and curious youngster in a house with guns (and this time, unlike the situation in your own home, you’ll probably have no idea where or how safely those guns are being stored). And even if YOUR child never goes over to your friend’s house, can you be sure that OTHER people’s children won’t visit either?
I think if you want to store the weapons off-site, a gun club locker is the way to go - otherwise, you’d be better off storing them in an appropriate gun safe in your own home (preferably disabled so they can’t be fired, and with no ammunition kept in the house). That way, you know they’re being stored in the safest possible manner, and are inaccessable to ALL children (not just your own).
Get rid of them if you want, but I don’t think it’s necessary at all. I was also raised with guns used for hunting, sport and target practice. By the time I was your daughter’s age I was going hunting with my dad for small game and making regular trips to the shooting range. I agree with the suggestion to take the mystery out of them by introducing her to them in a safe, controlled way and teaching her respect for them from the start. My dad did this for me and I appreciate it lots.
I don’t own a gun myself now because neither my husband nor I has time to hunt or target shoot. However, my dad bought my kids a cute little Chipmunk a couple of years ago that he hasn’t yet let them use (they’re 4 and 5). He says they’re both a little more “flighty” than I was as a child and will teach them to use it properly as soon as they’re mature enough. This summer he started them fishing and is planning to progress on to hunting with them when he feels the time is right.
IMHO trigger locks give an enourmous false sense of security and that trigger lock laws are a fraud.
You need two things. Education when your child is old enough and a safe your child cannot get into. Most safes are available with “spy proof” dials. This doesn’t mean 007 can’t get in but that the combination is concealed from someone looking from the side. A safe is a good investment anyway if you have a significant number of guns. I had a break in less than a month after I bought my safe. All my guns, cameras, documents and engagement ring for TheLadyLion are safely inside. Just knowing that none of my guns was not easily stolen and used in a crime made it the best thousand dollars I ever spent.
nswgru1 I don’t need any guns. I am a collector and a competetive shooter. I have a fair number of guns because I choose too. I also take the responsibility of being a gun owner and shooter very, very seriously.
Scylla, one as-yet unnoted thing here is that taking the “mystery” out of the gun, and teaching the child gun safety, not only makes your guns safe(er?), but also everyone elses’ as well.
And that, to me, is the key.
Yes, you can get rid of your rifles if you wish (though, as noted, that’s akin to disconnecting your gas and electricity, in the “remove all possible risks” department) but the kid can still happen across them at a friends or neighbors or elsewhere.
Don’t “force” it on the child, but do make it (the use of guns) available if he or she desires. Offer to have them go with you to the range for some plinking. (.22s at cheap crackers scattered on a backstop is fun- there’s a reaction from the target- and non-littering.) Let them know that any time they feel curious or interested, all they have to do is ask. If they don’t ask, don’t worry.
Make sure they take a firearms safety course (actually, from my own experience with various courses, like CPR, have them take a course several times, like once a year for two or three years) and/or maybe that Eddie Eagle course- there’s no “how it works” in that, it’s all “stop, get away, tell an adult”.
Bottom line, if she’s safe around your guns, she’ll be safe around anyones’ guns.
There is no federal law concerning parental corporal punishment. I was wrong. I apologize for spreading misinformation.
For more info on state law.
For a debate on spanking.
** nswgru1** --I am not “stupid” and this is not the BBQ Pit. Please recall that there are rules of civility on this Board.
As for your “argument”, I fail to see it’s validity. Are you sure the death you read about didn’t wise you up?
And, since you offered no argument , merely discourtesy, I reiterate: you don’y need more than one type of each weapon, & they should be under lock & key.
Locking up firearms is basic gun safety, whether or not children are in the house.
And thumbprint locks are a good solution to the rapid accesibility problem.
While this wasn’t directed at me. I’m sure I understand. I have several different shotguns. and 3 .22s.
All 3 are necessary as much as any rifle is neccessary to me.
One is set up with an identical scope as my .30-06, the other is set up with with the scope of my varmint rifle, and the third is iron sights.
The .22 is cheaper and less noisy to fire than the 06, and practice with it translates over because the scopes are the same, and the stocks are almost identical.
Same for the Varmint gun.
The one with the iron sights is good for general use, and it’s nice to have two guns in case I want to lend one to a friend and go hunt together.
I also have other duplicates. Some of my guns are too nice to use in rough conditions, like rain or slop. For example, I have a cheapo Remington 12 gauge that I don’t mind getting beaten up on a protracted hunting/camping trips that I wouldn’t think about bringing one of nicer heirlooms on.
Similarly my Valmer (now Tikka) combination gun has a variety of barrel kits that make it useful and necessary for niche purposes (nothing is better while groundhog hunting than .222 over a .12 gauge, but I have several other 12 gauges and a .223 barrel gun more suitable to long range.
Their duplicates but they have different utilities.
And there really is no justification for my Valmet other than it is a beautiful and elegant and incredibly wonderful piece of engineering. It’s its own justification.
I am the adult product of a house in which firearms of all types were within my sight since the day I could stand up. I’m going to chime in on the side that education and careful storage are a better solution here than selling all your guns.
I grew up in a house with what most people would call an arsenal, a gun cabinet that was never locked, and never played with any of it. Never.
Not only was I educated from the time I could walk and talk about the dangers of playing with guns, I was also taught another very important rule.
Respect for someone else’s things.
The rule was pretty simple. Dad doesn’t play with any of my cool stuff unless he asks me, and I don’t play with any of Dad’s cool stuff unless I ask him.
The guns were totally demistified because I was taken to the range with Dad, I got to touch them on certain occasions with close supervision, and it was explained to me what guns can be used for. It didn’t hurt that every fall and winter a myriad of animals came home with Dad, having been killed by him with a gun during hunting season.
At 3 years old I would troop out to the yard with Dad to inspect his 8 point buck, the bullet hole in it, and subconsiously have it impressed on my psyche that shooting something kills it so it can’t ever come back.
So I had two reasons to not play with guns. They didn’t belong to me, and shooting something will kill it, including me.
It must’ve worked, because both my sister and I reached adulthood without breaking those rules.
I also got my first gun at a young age (I was 6 years old when a friend of Dad’s gifted me with a 410 gauge single barrel shotgun), and I always had it and the shells accessible. I still followed the safety rules. My ability to follow the rules ‘Don’t touch it. Leave the area. Tell an adult.’ proved me responsible enough to be allowed to touch under supervision. My following of those rules earned me my own gun. My ability to take care of that gun and continue to follow safety rules meant Dad would help me buy my own rifle (a Remington 700 that I still have and use) for my first hunting season.
It is possible to raise a kid successfully in a house that also contains guns. It requires work and care and dilligence, but it also provided a really rewarding bonding experience between a catsix and her dad.
I won’t say you should do things the way my parents did (I’d lock the gun cabinet, for starters). I’ll only say that if you really don’t want to give up your guns (sorry, bad pun) and you were looking for some reassurance, you’ll get lots of it from me.
-Catsix
Overuser of parentheses and firearms owner.
Your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking…
And no, I haven’t yet. But let the punishment fit the crime. There are degrees of disobedience, and degrees of punishment. And if she got into my guns without my permission, then yes, I’d burn her ass with my belt without hesitation.
Any other questions?
What exactly do you need a cite for, LOGIC?
let’s see:
I was a child.
I do have a child.
A majority of my friends have children (that I am around a lot).
I was in quite a few psychology courses in college. (the nursing program requires those classes)
I worked on a pediatric unit in a hospital (along with other units) for awhile.
I am a class mother.
Just because soemone has a license to do X, doesn’t mean they are necessarily qualified. Have you driven on the road lately with all those licensed drivers?
Anyway, my daughters teachers DO NOT raise my child. Their job is to teach my daughter her ABC’s and 123’s.
If you have your childs teachers raising him or her, or if you think that you need a psycologist to help you raise them, I am sad for you.
In a nutshell, YES, I would say I am very qualified.
I am sorry though, I cannot give you a cite for logic. I didn’t think anyone would need one.
JD
One thing in learning about fire arms is for the student to kill his or her ‘Cackle’. as it were. When you get to hold and feel the result of what the trigger pull did in real life to a real living thing, I feel there is no greater awaking for the learner. Along with the great suggestions on de mystifying fire arms and training from a young age, I feel that having taken a life, be it be a bird or rodent or deer or… that experience will be of invaluable in creating awareness.
YMMV
Riboflavin said
It’s part of my whole winter line of BS actually. Wait til you see the pantsuit combos!
Truth be told Ribo’s reflexive action of hostility to any mention of gun owners’ obligation to society to be responsible ownes is quite entertaining. Sort of like how my dog shakes its rear leg when I scratch its belly. I’ll address the point despite the inappropriate manner in which it is addressed.
Most homicides are committed with handguns. As discussed in previous threads, my issue is keeping guns out of the hands of these criminals. Where do the murdering punks get them? Let’s list the possibilities:
-
They make them themselves.
-
They buy them legally.
-
They buy them under the counter or via a reseller or “straw man.”
-
They steal them.
Any others?
Well, maybe #1 is possible, but for right now I’ll assume that most handguns on the street are commercial products.
I’ve been told that #2 does not often happen and that such is put forth as why regulating gun sales from legal sellers won’t imact homicide rates. Certainly if it was the case then better control at points of sale would make perfect sense.
#3 does occur and I have provided the cite in the past. It is the reason given by those who advocate for tight controls of resale and of more vigorous inspection of large sellers along with the same expectation of tight inventory control that would be expected of a pharmacy dealing with controlled substances.
#4 I admittedly cannot find a cite that tracks the source of an illegal weapon used in a homicide. I can document that illegal weapons are most often used.
J Forensic Sci 1993 Nov;38(6):1409-21
And that handguns are the weapon of choice for homicide.
JAMA 1996 Jan 3;275(1):42-5
But how much is illegal sale of handguns and how much is stolen is an unknown figure to the best of my ability to determine. The conclusion that some of these unlocked unsecured hanguns are stolen and are used in crimes is a reasonable one, however. You are free to disagree but then please tell me where you think perps do get their guns from.
If you want to decrease the homicide rate you keep the weapons of choice out of the hands of those who kill people with them.
Actually, I prefer my hatred sauteed in butter and served with some Chianti, Clarisse. My hatred is rare, not raw.
If my irresponsibility arms a perp then I share culpability. If a physician leaves controlled substances unsecured in his office and they are then stolen because they were unsecured, he is ethically partly responsible for the damage done. By your logic US officials could leave a small atomic weapon unguarded and have no responsibilty when it is used in blow up New York City. You would leave a weapon on a park bench and say that it isn’t your fault that someone picked it up and killed someone with it.
I respect Scylla’s love of weaponry and its significance to him. I also respect his love of his daughter. It isn’t for me to decide how many weapons he should have, and as long as they are safely secured, it is none of my business. But a gun that is unsecured, a gun that is easily stolen, places others at risk. You do not have the right to put others at risk.
Finally, child safing should always be done well in advance of when a child is felt to be able to do the risky behavior. Kids suddenly are able to roll off changing tables, suddenly are able to climb and open cabinets, suddenly able to push things together and get triggers pulled. Secure the dang thing.
Actually, Scylla, before even worrying about the guns, the things you really need to protect your daughter (or any child) from are things like automibiles, fire hazards (does anyone smoke in your home?), toxins and sources of open water (a sink, a tub, a pool, a pond, a lake) and any small fiddleybit that they might ingest and choke on.
All of those kill more children (ages 0-18) than firearms.
I actually feel sorry for you, but that’s another matter.
I’m missing the ‘logical leap’ you’re taking by saying that if a child is not spanked at home, he/she will get beaten up at school. How is that logical?
Asking about your teaching or child psych credentials was relevant, because you are making a SWEEPING statement that: Children whose parents do not discipline them PHYSICALLY will end up getting beaten up (You said ‘get their asses kicked’) at school. So, I ask again: CITE?
Using the belt or hand may work for you and that’s YOUR business. But criticizing parents who choose to use non-physical disciplinary measures is waaaaay the heck out of line.
In my teaching and parenting experience, I’ve never noticed that the children who are teased/bullied or physically attacked are any more likely to have parents who use or do not use physical forms of discipline. I’m asking that you provide a cite, because this is GD.
Also, I’m not aware of the existence in this forum of the word ‘logic’ as a rationale for anything. It’s YOUR logic, so, explain it.
Jersey Diamond
I must apologize for my hijack of this thread. Another thread on this topic has been started over here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145496
so please respond, if you wish, on the new thread.
Whatever else you do (this may have been pointed out already- I’m lazy) - you have about 2 years MAX to find a better idea than “she’s not big enough to chamber a round” - somewhere between 5 and 6 (according to a bil who kept his 45acp lying around when his kid was 4) a kid acquires the ability to chamber a round.
I could imagine a secure box requiring adult strength to open quickly, but I can also imagine a determined kid figuring out how to defeat it.
And get rid of the arrows - seal them in a welded steel box or destroy/sell them, but never allow a kid a shot at those things.