I worked fairly closely with several Harvard undergrads when I first came to Boston. I was only a couple of years older than them myself, and the product of an unremarkable State University.
I was all prepared to be intimidated and/or scorned by these Paragons (as I imagined them) but was pleasantly surprised to find them to be perfectly normal, modest, friendly young people not much different from myself. They were all of middle class to maybe slightly upper middle class background, only one of them would I say looking back was of genius level intelligence. I became good friends with one guy in particular and he was funny and down to earth, a pleasure to work with.
So my preconceptions about the Harvard undergrad population were blown right the hell out of the water, and I suspect, Sampiro yours would be as well if you got to know some of them.
If the niece should get accepted to Harvard (still a long shot, but you never know) and she wants to go and Daddy is willing to pay she should by all means go.
Wendell good for you for knowing what was best for you.
Couple of points, mostly in agreement with others.
She shouldn’t go to Berkeley. My daughter went half time her senior year of high school as part of a special program, and had no desire to go there (though she was already admitted.) Because of budget cutbacks it is hard to get classes, and you get kicked out of dorms in a year. Given that money does not seem to be an issue, a private school offers a lot more. My daughter went to the University of Chicago, which she adored.
If Harvard lets her in, she’ll be fine. Once you are in a school like that, you have to work hard to flunk out. I knew people at MIT who negotiated their way out of Fs. Harvard is also the home of grade inflation.
Don’t worry about the other students. At MIT I met a girl whose father was King of Thailand. (She did not get in because of that.) On the other hand, a friend of mine had a father who was a house painter. Once you are in, you are accepted. She will have a much easier time than someone without money to keep up.
Don’t believe someone who says that all colleges are equal. People from elite schools help each other. You make contacts which open doors. I got a really good RA position at the University of Illinois instead of a crappy TA one because I was coming from MIT. You meet a better class of recruiter - companies can’t afford to recruit everywhere, and go to places like Harvard first. It doesn’t pay off for everyone, but it is a good bet.
She should interview, she should look the place over, and if she gets in and likes it she should go. Even if she doesn’t like it, it is a lot easier to transfer from Harvard to a state school than the other way around. And being a Techie, I’m no fan of the place!
> I think a year or two at a state or at least a decent prestitious private
> university would be MUCH better for her.
Incidentally, you do realize that it’s virtually impossible to transfer into any college as selective as Harvard, don’t you? They get few drop-outs, so there are few places for transfer students into later years. Many such places simply don’t take transfer students at all, and the rest have their selection of the absolutely best students at other universities for the few available spots.
I’m surprised that her dad doesn’t want her to go to ALABAMA, AUBURN or TROY STATE, so she can be close to home and Daddy. This is her chance to escape from Andalusia and not be strangled by her small home town.
You should support her and let her know that whatever she wants to do you will be there for her. If she succeeds you will rejoice with her and if she fails you will stand by her.
I’m in grad school at Harvard and spend a substantial amount of time with undergraduate students. They seem amazingly normal and centered to me. Most frosh I’ve encountered are suffering from the Harvard 'flu - nobody is quite sure how they got in, and they’re all a little insecure about it. Hence they tend to be humble.
I would say if your niece is not terribly well-adjusted - I’m not talking about the normal range, but perhaps suffering from a mental health issue - Harvard is not a great place to be. It’s too big and while the services have improved, a kid in that sort of condition needs to be close to home and family. Winter in Cambridge - take it from a Texan - is bleak, dark, and depressing. Not a great place to be if you’re from Alabama and on the razor’s edge.
I worked at Emory years back, and I encountered snobbery, elitism, etc. at a far higher rate than I have here. The students here that I’ve encountered seem to have a really good perspective on the world about them, very socially responsible, and very close (Class Speaker Day is a recount of the good times the seniors had while they were there, and the stories tend to revolve around the usual early adulthood bonding experience).
I used to conduct volunteer admissions interviews at Harvard as well. Tell your niece to relax and treat it as if Harvard is applying to her, and she’ll do fine.
(oh, wanted to second the comment about Princeton being the most Southern of all the Ivies - several friends from Princeton confirm this.)
Also from an economic perspective, studies repeated have shown that the best strategy is to attend the school that fits the student best in the highest echelon of institutions that he or she can get into. In other words, the peer effects (having really smart roommates, classmates) and the networking opportunities are worth the cash (or loans). I’d say if she is competitive for admissions to Harvard and the Ivies or a very good liberal arts college that would work out the best for her. Alternately, a very strong state school (like a UT or a UNC, close to home) with an honors program might be a good bet and would give her a great deal of contact that students get at the prestigious privates for a cheaper price - as well as some of the more “normal” aspects of the college experience (greater variance in income levels, more diversity re: SES, ethnicity, and race - in some cases, as well as ability).
Sounds like she has a bright future and whatever choice she makes - if it makes her happy, it sounds like it will work out fine (especially if she is a hard worker as you state, Sampiro.)
msmith: It’s not, but it is (I believe) the most southern of the Ivies. Almost certainly unrelated to this fact is that I’m told it is a lot more “southern” than the other schools; there are a lot of sundresses and mint juleps and plenty of socialisation. It’s a more “garden party” atmosphere than the other Ivies, and a lot more Southern students seem to choose it over Harvard, Dartmouth, etc.
Odd. While I never went to Princeton, I lived in Princeton, blocks from the campus, and never noticed a “Southern” atmosphere. Perhaps it is that Princeton is still a fairly small town. Perhaps I didn’t notice it having just moved from Louisiana, the real south. Princeton isn’t even in southern New Jersey!
FWIW, Philadelphia is about 45 miles southwest of Princeton NJ, and it is the home of U Penn, a member in good standing of the Ivy League.
Of course, if you were talking about ‘southern’ as a state of mind instead of a strict geographical description, I can’t say one way or the other, having been to neither place.
Like ratatoskK, I’m a Cornell alum. For that reason, she shouldn’t go to Harvard, but rather Cornell.
Honestly, the adjustment is going to be there, but it’d be pretty similar at any school outside her local area. Yes, there are children there whose parents own major corporations and have power, etc, etc. There are also kids from Podunk, Nowhere. It’s a HUGE melting pot at the Ivies (and other elite schools), and they have a diversity that you probably won’t get at other schools unless you start going to the HUGE schools like Ohio State or UMich.
If you’re scared that she won’t cut it, I wouldn’t worry about it. Pretty much: If you get in, you can cut it…but you’ll have to work at it. As far as grades go, though, Harvard is the place to be to screw up. The grade inflation there is such that a bad semester is usually a 3.5, so I wouldn’t worry about it. Seriously, though: If she applies herself, she will do well. It’s just that simple. Everyone accepted to a top school has the ABILITY to perform at that level…add the desire and the work, and everything else will fall into place.
Unfortunately, I haven’t had a chance to read everyone’s response so I might be repeating what someone else said, but I wanted to add my $0.02.
It is hard to go from being the top of the class and not having to work all that hard in high school to not being the best in college. And she’ll definitely face that at an Ivy League. But she’d probably face the same sort of challenge at any good school.
I certainly didn’t go to an Ivy League, but I still felt exactly that way. And it was a harsh reality. But everyone’s got to face it at some point and at least at college there’re other people who’re experiencing the same kinds of feelings. Even more so at the top schools many of the students were the valedictorians of their classes. And they can’t all be valedictorians any more. So there’re alotta people facing that commupance (sp?) at the same time and that can help. At least there’re other people to talk to about it.
So I’d say she should do it if she has the chance. Yes, it’ll be hard. But better to face that now in the cushy college environment where they offer counselling and where other people feel the same way than in the “real world.”
Chrisk, voyager - yes, it’s more of a state of mind. I’ve never been to the area, but I’m told it’s much more an atmosphere evident among students and parties and such. Very laid-back and social, and different from much of its surroundings.
Eventually, someone is obligated to play dimestore psychologist, so here’s my two cents:
You’re envious of your niece–her money, her youth, her seemingly carefree existence. You’re envious that someone so close to you has such exciting opportunities while someone of your intellect/erudition/maturity no longer does and perhaps never did. What compounds the insult is that she may squander an opportunity for which you would give your eye teeth just to experience.
Not really. I have major issues with her father, I freely admit that, but recognize that she’s innocent. Mainly I truly have been concerned about her. This thread has helped alleviate a lot of my concerns.
When I was a kid I attended a very ritzy expensive private school where my middle class family was at the bottom of the socioeconomic structure and the snobbery I encountered there was terrible. My sister felt the same way and still resents it (even though today she’s richer in her own right than most of her classmates became by inheritance).
The other thing is that, as I’ve said, she’s never had a grade lower than an A. The thoughts of how she’ll react if she gets a C or worse for the first time 1000 miles from home have been a concern. (My Aunt Lucy was a straight A student who flunked out her first quarter in college; that was in the 1930s- I remember her from the 1970s when she was standing in a highway with her dress over her head urinating in the road and recalling “Daddy bought me ox blood Rockports to sheathe my feet when I matriculated”- I really don’t want to see my niece pissing in the highway since it’s a lot busier now than it used to be. )
As I’ve said, it’s not my call and que sera sera, and this has alleviated some of my chief concerns.
OTOH, my concerns for my nephew are just starting to really show their head. The kid is… uh, how shall we say… well, he just turned 14 and will express his major irritations with particular hair care products in a lisp while holding his hands on his hips and listening to Bette Midler on his IPOD. I’m expecting a knock on the door in a couple or three years.
I went to Princeton, and I think you’re giving way too much weight to the Ivy League stereotypes. My freshman year, I roomed in a suite with six other women. Four were on heavy financial aid, one was upper middle class, and one was an upper class debutante. Of course, you’d never tell them apart without looking through clothing labels. Everyone got along splendidly, regardless of social or economic background.
Yes, there is the occasional prince or movie star or whatever, but it really doesn’t affect you much. Most of the people there are pretty down-to-earth. Frankly, I found it almost TOO normal for my tastes. I think I might have preferred MIT’s geek culture.
So… my advice would be to keep your thoughts to yourself. One of the most hurtful comments I ever received was from a high school Physics teacher who was trying to “prepare” me for the disappointment of not getting accepted to my top choices. (He was way off-base. Nobody rejected me and I ended up with the happy choice of Princeton vs. MIT vs. Harvard.)
There are few things more discouraging than a vote of no confidence from someone you trust and respect.
