My Oil Furnace Died

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=the raindog]
That’s good news. I’m glad for you.

$3900 does seem a little low…Have you received quotes yet?

Is there room to negotiate that up if needed?
[/QUOTE]

I havn’t really been looking hard yet. But the guy from the Oil company said a new oil furnace bought and installed would be around $3,000.

But a friend of my dads said the gas company will put in lines to your house if you agree to use NG furnace and hot water heater. So I am going to check into that.

And also I am thinking fo going with forced air and doing away with the steam radiators.

Thoughts?

22

[QUOTE=The Man In Black]
And also I am thinking fo going with forced air and doing away with the steam radiators.

Thoughts?
[/QUOTE]

I certainly support getting away from steam radiators. They have some advantages, but not so much for the individual home owner. Hot water heat* may be good for you, but if you do that make sure you treat the water. Not pushing you towards it, just offering it up as another option.

One question/comment: If you’re planning to go the forced air route - do you have ducting installed already where the heat can go, or would you have to have that installed as well as the heating system? Also, what would you do with the existing steam piping and radiators in the house - leave them in place, or remove them? (IOW, going from low pressure steam to forced air heat isn’t going to a simple transparent change - you will probably be looking at a good deal of structural remodeling on the house to do it. Of course you’d probably be looking at the same for hot water heat, too. And steam piping doesn’t last forever - so it may be time to think about replacing it, even if you do stay with steam. Yes, I’m juuust full of cheerful thoughts.)

My personal gut feeling - if I were in your shoes and had the money for the investment I’d really look at a ground source heat pump system - heating and cooling in one system, and generally very cheap to operate. But if you look at danceswithcats’s description of it, you can see why it’s not a cheap installation. OTOH, look into local, state and federal home owner’s incentives for moving to more efficient heating/cooling options - you may be able to qualify for grants, low interest loans, or tax benefits.

*For anyone confused by that term, hot water heat uses a primary heat source (coal, oil, gas, or even a heat pump) to heat water, still in liquid phase, and then pump the heated water through the building where the heat radiates from the piping to the rooms. This is a closed cycle, so the water then returns to the heat source (Often called a boiler. In part because they’re often very similar in construction to what’s known as a fire-tube boiler.) to be heated again. Some advantages include: being able to keep the system filled year-round, so there’s no need to vent it at the start of every heating system; the water in the circulating system can also be used to transfer heat out of the living spaces for chilling by a central A/C unit; the system is easier to keep sealed than a steam cycle heat system, and consequently - easier to keep chemically treated - with the advantages in longer system life for the piping in the circulating loop. Disadvantages include: the need for a ciculating pump, as well as the heat source, which provides another potential failure point for the heating system - not a dangerous failure point, just one thing that may go wrong, and leave your house without heat; and the fact that if a leak develops it will generally do much more water damage than a leak in a similar steam system might cause.

23

[QUOTE=OtakuLoki]
I certainly support getting away from steam radiators. They have some advantages, but not so much for the individual home owner. Hot water heat* may be good for you, but if you do that make sure you treat the water. Not pushing you towards it, just offering it up as another option.

One question/comment: If you’re planning to go the forced air route - do you have ducting installed already where the heat can go, or would you have to have that installed as well as the heating system? Also, what would you do with the existing steam piping and radiators in the house - leave them in place, or remove them? (IOW, going from low pressure steam to forced air heat isn’t going to a simple transparent change - you will probably be looking at a good deal of structural remodeling on the house to do it. Of course you’d probably be looking at the same for hot water heat, too. And steam piping doesn’t last forever - so it may be time to think about replacing it, even if you do stay with steam. Yes, I’m juuust full of cheerful thoughts.)

My personal gut feeling - if I were in your shoes and had the money for the investment I’d really look at a ground source heat pump system - heating and cooling in one system, and generally very cheap to operate. But if you look at danceswithcats’s description of it, you can see why it’s not a cheap installation. OTOH, look into local, state and federal home owner’s incentives for moving to more efficient heating/cooling options - you may be able to qualify for grants, low interest loans, or tax benefits.

*For anyone confused by that term, hot water heat uses a primary heat source (coal, oil, gas, or even a heat pump) to heat water, still in liquid phase, and then pump the heated water through the building where the heat radiates from the piping to the rooms. This is a closed cycle, so the water then returns to the heat source (Often called a boiler. In part because they’re often very similar in construction to what’s known as a fire-tube boiler.) to be heated again. Some advantages include: being able to keep the system filled year-round, so there’s no need to vent it at the start of every heating system; the water in the circulating system can also be used to transfer heat out of the living spaces for chilling by a central A/C unit; the system is easier to keep sealed than a steam cycle heat system, and consequently - easier to keep chemically treated - with the advantages in longer system life for the piping in the circulating loop. Disadvantages include: the need for a ciculating pump, as well as the heat source, which provides another potential failure point for the heating system - not a dangerous failure point, just one thing that may go wrong, and leave your house without heat; and the fact that if a leak develops it will generally do much more water damage than a leak in a similar steam system might cause.
[/QUOTE]

As for the existing steam piping, I would remove it. And the duct work? I am remodeling the house anyway. Almost everything is ripped out. So putting the duct work in is no big problem.

And I am reading up on ground source heat pump.

Thank you.

24

Are you planning to add air conditioning? If you’re sticking with heat only, you can always go with hydronic baseboard, and if basement space is at a premium, consider a boiler with a domestic coil. If you’re looking at keeping the period look of your house, no reason a modern higher efficiency steam plant couldn’t connect to the existing plumbing.

25

[QUOTE=the raindog]
…It’s complicated and not interesting to write or read, but suffice it to say that Natural Gas is easier to distribute, burn and control versus Liquid Propane or [Liquid] Oil. Of the three, Oil is the hardest, dirtiest and most likely to have something get out of adjustment and/or fail. Out in the sticks, or in the NE, Oil is common.
[/QUOTE]

I live in New England, and I had oil heat in my last house, and it sucked. It was a cheap power-vent boiler system that vented through the garage wall to the back yard. Everytime the furnace kicked on (or there was a hot water demand), it was like a diesel truck idling in the back yard. Even worse was the summer, when exhaust fumes from the furnace would drift into the open windows on the second floor.

I now have propane. While it may be liquid under pressure in the tank (500-gallon underground tank), it’s definitely a gas by the time it hits the furnace, raindog, and it’s misleading for you to lump it in with oil heat. My old oil furnace had a pump and an atomizer; my propane-fired furnace (and my stove, for that matter) work like any other gas appliance. No pumps or anything, because it’s a gas, just like a BBQ grill tank.

Anyway, even if you don’t have natural gas in your area, Man in Black, you might consider a propane system. We use it for heat, hot water, stove, etc.

26

[QUOTE=robby]
I live in New England, and I had oil heat in my last house, and it sucked. It was a cheap power-vent boiler system that vented through the garage wall to the back yard. Everytime the furnace kicked on (or there was a hot water demand), it was like a diesel truck idling in the back yard. Even worse was the summer, when exhaust fumes from the furnace would drift into the open windows on the second floor.
[/quote]
You don’t indicate physical distances between the vent port and windows, so I can’t determine if the installation was code compliant. Please don’t blame an appliance type or fuel system if the installation was substandard.

raindog didn’t equate LP with oil. I read his post to mean that in terms of transport, cleanliness, and such, NG was best, next was LP, and last was oil. I fail to see how his post was in any way misleading.

27

[QUOTE=The Man In Black]
I havn’t really been looking hard yet. But the guy from the Oil company said a new oil furnace bought and installed would be around $3,000.

But a friend of my dads said the gas company will put in lines to your house if you agree to use NG furnace and hot water heater. So I am going to check into that.

And also I am thinking fo going with forced air and doing away with the steam radiators.

Thoughts?
[/QUOTE]

It appears that you have a boiler, not a furnace, In my neck of the woods, a furnace would be $2500-3000 or so. A boiler maybe around $4000-5500.

If you go to a forced air system you have several options:

  1. Leave the radiators alone and replace the boiler, and add a forced air system. Your forced air system may have a furnace or simply an air handler—meaning it is a “cooling only” forced air system. It is the most expensive way to go, for you are putting in 2 systems, a boiler and an A/C air handler. I’ve seen it done many times, however, because boiler heat is preferred by many.

  2. Scrap the existing system and go with FA. You can expect to pay $8000-13000; with $10-11K being the average. (I would guess) Theres a lot do do—adding ductwork is time consuming and difficult. You’re also adding refrigeration and pulling a 220V line outside for the A/C.

Of course, there is the choice of fuel.

  1. Oil.
    Easy because you have a tank in place. It’s benefit? No line to run—it’s already there.

  2. LP.
    Your LP vendor will set a tank and pipe it underground to the edge of the house—for free. At that point, your plumber will need to bring the line (in black iron) to the furnace—which won’t be free.

  3. NG.
    If your utility will bring NG into the house for free, I’d go with this route. Historically, NG will deliver heat cheaper than oil or LP, and it has fewer maintenance issues then either oil or LP. You need to check what the cost is—it may not be free. If it is, they may only stub it in the house and require your HVAC company to bring it to the furnace/ water heater.

  4. HP. Coupled with Elec/oil/LP or NG
    I don’t know where you live, but a very cheap form of overall heat would be a HP. If you use an air source heat pump, it will need a source of backup heat. If your utility will bring in the NG that a “duel fuel” system of HP w/ NG is the best option for lowest over operating cost and lowest maintenance.

  5. Geo-Thermal.
    There are different systems from “direct expansion” to “indirect expansion”–often called “water source heat pumps.” Indirect is more common and will use a well, or ground loop in the back yard (or even a pond) and extract heat from the ground. It will be the cheapest form of heat, but by far the most expensive system to install. Considering you need all new ductwork, I would guess this to cost $16-21K. It’s a big investment, but if you plan to stay in the house for many years to come, it may be the right thing for you.

28

[QUOTE=robby]
…snip…

I now have propane. While it may be liquid under pressure in the tank (500-gallon underground tank), it’s definitely a gas by the time it hits the furnace, raindog, and it’s misleading for you to lump it in with oil heat. My old oil furnace had a pump and an atomizer; my propane-fired furnace (and my stove, for that matter) work like any other gas appliance. No pumps or anything, because it’s a gas, just like a BBQ grill tank.

Anyway, even if you don’t have natural gas in your area, Man in Black, you might consider a propane system. We use it for heat, hot water, stove, etc.
[/QUOTE]

Here’s what I said:

“…It’s complicated and not interesting to write or read, but suffice it to say that Natural Gas is easier to distribute, burn and control versus Liquid Propane or [Liquid] Oil. Of the three, Oil is the hardest, dirtiest and most likely to have something get out of adjustment and/or fail…”

I’m an HVAC contractor and over the 20 years we’ve been doing this we’ve serviced thousands of furnaces and boilers. Over those years we have been called out dozens of times for frozen LP regulators, or fouled up heat exchangers, or found small leaks in the flaired, copper line that runs from the tank to the furnace. We’ve been called out many times because the tank ran dry, and fouled up the flame sensor when it was refilled. (LP is heavier than air and will accumulate on the floor if there is a leak. And, LP operates at 3X the pressure of NG) LP units are reliable machines to be sure, but hands down NG is cheaper to operate and has few maintenance issues.

Over that period I can think of one time where we had to call the utility because their regulator (which sets next to the gas meter) was acting up. One time. Natural Gas delivery from the utility is amazingly consistent and reliable. And so are most furnaces.

YMMV. If you have different experience, please share it with The Man In Black.

But, based on my 20 years experience, I stand by what I said.

29

[QUOTE=danceswithcats]
You don’t indicate physical distances between the vent port and windows, so I can’t determine if the installation was code compliant. Please don’t blame an appliance type or fuel system if the installation was substandard.
raindog didn’t equate LP with oil. I read his post to mean that in terms of transport, cleanliness, and such, NG was best, next was LP, and last was oil. I fail to see how his post was in any way misleading.
[/QUOTE]

The window was probably 10 feet above the power vent. The house was inspected twice, (when I bought it and when I sold it), and neither inspector said anything about it. Also, every other house in the neighborhood had a similar set-up.

I may not have been clear when I described raindog’s comment as misleading. All that I believe is misleading was lumping “Liquid Propane” with “[Liquid] Oil” (emphasis in original).

Propane is a liquid when stored under pressure. It is not a liquid when it hits the furnace.

As far as distribution goes, natural gas is easy to distribute if you have the infrastructure in place. In rural areas, this is likely not the case.

30

P.S. As far as maintenance issues goes for LP vs. natural gas, though, I defer to your expertise, raindog.

If I had a choice, I’d go with natural gas in a heartbeat. I don’t have that option, though. No natural gas in my area.

LP is still hands-down better than oil, though.

31

[QUOTE=robby]
P.S. As far as maintenance issues goes for LP vs. natural gas, though, I defer to your expertise, raindog.

If I had a choice, I’d go with natural gas in a heartbeat. I don’t have that option, though. No natural gas in my area.

LP is still hands-down better than oil, though.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree.

32

I just noticed the OP started with* “Hello. This is my first post here as a member”* and not a single one of us welcomed you. (as far as I can tell)

Shame on us!

Welcome The Man in Black! Glad to have you on board.

33

[QUOTE=the raindog]

Welcome The Man in Black! Glad to have you on board.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you Raindog!

Still taking in all this info.