Nebbish saves your life in exchange for promise of future sex. Do yu pay up?

[Trinopus]

@billfish678

Lets say rather than Sean, you have Pat or Leslie.

Pat or Leslie under NO circumstances will hang around to save your butt, even if the risk to themselves is minor/non existant (like you are pinned in a slowly flooding basement).

Who is “worse”?

I have more respect for a coward than for an extortionist.

@Skald_the_Rhymer

In early 2003 I didn’t have insurance, but I did have a fair bit of money in the bank. I had to go to the ER and agree to pay for services. The bill was something like $5,000. That was about a third of what I had in savings at that time. I could do it, do it, but it would hurt. I might have died without the ER’s services, so I had no choice but to agree to the terms. Was I ethically obliged to pay the bill?

This is a reason we should have a national health plan: at present, medical care is extorted from us.

@billfish678

Another thought.

Your boss promises you a raise for sex.

People get in trouble doing that. But nobody calls that rape.

We’d still call it illegal extortion. Rape involves physical force at the time of the crime (or drugs, or fear of harm.)

(And if the boss demanded sex or else he would fire you, that is rape: it’s sex demanded in lieu of harm done to you. If the college professor says, “I’ll give you an A in my class if you have sex with me,” that’s criminal extortion. But if he says, “Have sex with me, or I’ll give you an F,” that’s rape.)

[billfish678]

Umm…like I said…trouble, not rape.

[Count_Blucher]

@GunnarFranz

It amazes me how little people value their word.

@GunnarFranz

Personally I wouldn’t make such a promise but under the hypothetical, yes. It does besmirch one’s honor to break a promise perhaps though not more than making one so dishonorable in the first place.

du·ress

“d(y)o͝oˈres”

noun

threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment. (Bolding Mine)
“confessions extracted under duress”
synonyms: coercion, compulsion, force, pressure, intimidation, constraint

LAW - constraint illegally exercised to force someone to perform an act.

Archaic - forcible restraint or imprisonment.

---

TL/DR - Your honor is intact.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

In early 2003 I didn’t have insurance, but I did have a fair bit of money in the bank. I had to go to the ER and agree to pay for services. The bill was something like $5,000. That was about a third of what I had in savings at that time. I could do it, do it, but it would hurt. I might have died without the ER’s services, so I had no choice but to agree to the terms. Was I ethically obliged to pay the bill?

@Trinopus

This is a reason we should have a national health plan: at present, medical care is extorted from us.

Who cares what we SHOLD have? The question was whether, in the conditions that actually existed in 2003, would I have been ethically justified in not payig that bill?

I benefited from the ER service. I agreed to pay the bill. I had the funds to pay the bill without having to borrow money from anyone or do anything illegal. It wasn’t going to impoverish me; it was just going to force me to wait longer to buy a car. And I didn’t need a new car to get around and live my life.

Would I have been ethically justified in skipping out on that bill?

[Trinopus]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Who cares what we SHOLD have? The question was whether, in the conditions that actually existed in 2003, would I have been ethically justified in not payig that bill?

I benefited from the ER service. I agreed to pay the bill. I had the funds to pay the bill without having to borrow money from anyone or do anything illegal. It wasn’t going to impoverish me; it was just going to force me to wait longer to buy a car. And I didn’t need a new car to get around and live my life.

Would I have been ethically justified in skipping out on that bill?

You’ve just given several reasons for the answer being no. Do you often engage in solo debates?

[MrDibble]

@Riemann

I get that, but you haven’t addressed the question of where to draw the line on what constitutes mortal danger.

I don’t recall it being asked of me directly.

It seems to me that there’s a continuum running between the extremes of imminent threat of sudden death, and (say) needing a kidney transplant at some time within the next year.

Yes, seems there is.

Is there some bright line that you see, or do you just accept that “degree of duress” it’s a quantitative question, and we have to choose an arbitrary threshold as best we can in deciding whether the duress was great enough that a promise is (ethically or legally) non-binding?

I’d say it’s arbitrary - I’d define it as “clear and present mortal danger” but I’m sure the boundaries are fuzzy. And I’m OK with that.

@Trinopus

Maybe a little?

Not to whether I’m immoral in breaking my word. Only as to whether Sean was skuzzy or not.

[Bricker]

@Riemann

Yes, as I recall the legal definition of “assault” does not require fulfillment of the threatened act, so presumably he could be guilty of sexual assault.

No.

The problem is that the phrase “sexual assault,” can mean either a specific statutory offense, or a generic description of a crime.

At common law, an assault occurs when an unwanted touching is credibly threatened. Different states will have different nuances, but the key point here is that the mere fact that the unwanted touching is sexual in nature does not transform the crime into sexual assault. Typically “sexual assault,” requires the unwanted touching to occur; the crime of assault generally completes the moment the credible threat is made.

[Bricker]

@Trinopus

Maybe a little?

If Sean says, “I’ll rescue you, but you have to pay me ten grand,” that’s bad. If Sean is nearby, and I open the bidding – “Hey, Sean, rescue me and I’ll pay you ten grand” – then that lets Sean off from the charge of extortion.

Even in this case, I don’t have to pay. The situation is, itself, coercive. There was no “meeting of minds,” because I’m in a position where I cannot make a free decision.

And when you explain this to Sean, she replies, “I risked dying myself in order to save you. I had no obligation to remain. I undertook that risk in reliance on your promise,” what do you say?

Or, conversely, what if you said, “Hey, Sean, rescue me and I’ll pay you ten grand!” and Sean replies, “I would if I thought you could be held to that promise, but I fear I’ll risk my life and then you’ll simply declare that as this situation is coercive, you have no obligation to pay.”

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Trinopus

You’ve just given several reasons for the answer being no. Do you often engage in solo debates?

Dd you mean to type “You’ve just BEEN given several reasons” etc?

Because I don’t think I have given any reasons for reneging on that debt. I gave unconvincing (to me) rationalizations and excuses for doing so. I agreed to pay for a needed service in full consciousness that it would be expensive. I had the resources to pay for it; I just didn’t want to, because honoring the debt would inconvenience me. If I hadn’t paid the debt, people would rightly call me a leech.

Similarly, not paying the financial debt to Sean just because she “extorted” me (by agreeeing not simply to save my life, but to riskher life in the procss and getting injured in the process) is dishonorable.

[billfish678]

Sean: Unless you promise to have sex with me, I’m leaving your ass and you’ll die.

Dope: Okay.

Okay, not sure the label is the perfect one, but let’s call this “extortion” for now.

But what has Sean actually extorted from you.

Sex? Nope.

A PROMISE of sex? Yes.

A promise has no inherent value. It is not tangible. It may or may not have any legal standing and in this case I’ll go out on a limb and state that my money is on it having NO legal standing.

So Sean has extorted something of no value whatsoever.

Now a few days later:

Sean: Hey about that sex promise? I have a Motel Six coupon that expires in couple of days ya know.

Doper: Bite my shiny metal ass.

OR

Dope: Well, okay damnit.

Now for Sean to possibly redeem that promise for sex voucher, what can Sean do? Sean has no power over Doper. Sean can’t go to the law. Sean can’t fire you or not give you a raise. Sean can’t terminate your apartment lease…

What power DOES Sean have? Sean can make you feel guilty if you break your promise.

Making people feel guilty about doing something is not a crime. Heck, I’m not even sure it rise to level of being an ethical moral wrong. At best (worst?) it is probably more along the lines of sleazy.

[panache45]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Think Amy Farrah-Fowler from BIG BANG THEORY, or the comic book owner from the same show.

These two characters are a lot better looking than I imagine Sean to be. I even consider them to be somewhat hot, in their own way.

That being said, there’s sex, and then there’s sex. Not at all the same thing.

Even though Sean is an ass hole, I would go through with it, as an act of simple gratitude. In the context of my marriage, sex is a spiritual act as well as physical. It involves the totality of feelings between me and my husband, not just a matter of putting tab A into slot B. Having sex with Sean would in no way be the same experience as having sex with my husband. It would be a totally mechanical act with no meaning whatsoever. Less than taking a dump. My husband and I had that kind of sex with others many times before we met, and I know he’d support my decision to have sex with Sean . . . again, as a simple emotionally meaningless act of gratitude, in no way similar to the lovemaking my husband and I share.

It wouldn’t be the first time I had sex with an ass hole.

[YogSothoth]

I’d do it, if only for the curiosity. Of course if I weren’t single or if she has STD’s, it may change the outcome. I wouldn’t be annoyed or creeped out by it, it seems like a perfectly hilarious thing to ask in the middle of a disaster. Something I would come up with. And hey, she risked her own life for mine when we weren’t even great friends. Even if she was awkward and weird, and who hasn’t been that way in their life, that would at least put her in the self-sacrificing altruistic good people tier that many of us think we’re in but in reality few of us are. So it might not be a good shag, but I see it as my duty to help her out.

[Grrr]

Forgot I asked a very similar question 12 years ago. Here.

[YogSothoth]

@Lemur866

Let’s post another hypothetical.

Your daughter was in an earthquake at work and was saved by Sean. After she gets out of the hospital, she comes to you and tells you that Chris only offered to save her life in exchange for sexual favors.

What actions do you take?

I’d tell her “Well, you did promise and he saved your life so…”

What? I don’t have kids, why do you ask?

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I assume you meant to type Sean throughout.

My bio daughter is only a baby, bit my stepdaughter is adult. So I’ll imagine her in the situation. If her rescuer is simply asking her to … pay…then I will support whatever decision she makes; I do not have the right to tell her what to do. If he’s trying to use physical force to coerce her, that is rape,and we call the police; the baseball bat only gets brought out in case of an imminent threat. If he’s trying to shame her into sex, iI let her handle with but assist as she needs and will allow. Because she’s an adult.

If she’s promised him money, I advise her to pay it and help her if she needs it. I may pay it myself. My stepdaughter’s life is the fifth most valuable thing in the univese.

Let’s say it was the opposite. Your stepdaughter saved someone after extracting a promise from that person for sex, later she wants to collect. Assuming the other guy hasn’t made his feelings known, do you advise her to ask for payment or tell her she was bad for demanding it?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@YogSothoth

I’d tell her “Well, you did promise and he saved your life so…”

What? I don’t have kids, why do you ask?

Let’s say it was the opposite. Your stepdaughter saved someone after extracting a promise from that person for sex, later she wants to collect. Assuming the other guy hasn’t made his feelings known, do you advise her to ask for payment or tell her she was bad for demanding it?

Tuere’s no way she would tell me about that. But if I somehow found out I would discourage her very strongly from trying to get sex this way (not that she’d need to; she’s no twittering virgin, is fairly cute, and given that she sometimes takes pictures of good-looking naked people probably has many opportunties). f she risked her life to save someone else’s in exchange for a promise of money, and that person woud not pay up, I tell her that I do not know if the agreement is legally enforceable and she should hire a lawyer.

[Trinopus]

@Bricker

And when you explain this to Sean, she replies, “I risked dying myself in order to save you. I had no obligation to remain. I undertook that risk in reliance on your promise,” what do you say?

What people usually say in news interviews after they’ve been rescued: “Thank you!” (What do I really need to say? My lawyer will explain it to Sean’s lawyer.)

Or, conversely, what if you said, “Hey, Sean, rescue me and I’ll pay you ten grand!” and Sean replies, “I would if I thought you could be held to that promise, but I fear I’ll risk my life and then you’ll simply declare that as this situation is coercive, you have no obligation to pay.”

“Good point. You’re quite correct. Any chance of a freebie?”