Negotiate w/Taliban?

[Marley23]

@tagos

I remember a Newsweek article at the time - The Army of Scholars or something like that. It was something I followed a lot and the BBC in particular (BBC world news) ran many stories of the utter atrocities that the warlords were indulging in. Shelling each other in Kabul etc. It wasn’t a government the Taliban overthrew - but a multi-sided battle between warlords fought in the capital itself with heavy weapons.

Ok. Of course that’s not what you said before and it agrees with what I said:

@Marley23

There’s no question the Najibullah government was also awful, but if the Taliban were ever welcomed as saviors by anyone it’s because the fall of the Najibullah government was followed by civil war (and the country had been in turmoil for decades at that point anyway).

@tagos

By the time the Taliban arrived people were desperate. What would be shocking would be if they were not welcomed. Anything to stop the chaos. To end the suffering.

To the extent anyone welcomed them, and I don’t know how many people really did, it was briefly and only to the extent they hoped a single government would replace outright warfare.

[handsomeharry]

@Marley23

He didn’t change his mind. He said negotiations were preferable to war, not that he was opposed to war. And insisting on a particular term in a negotiation is not refusing to negotiate.

I think ‘unconditional surrender’ is a bit more than ‘a particular term.’

[Monty]

At least the British police aren’t sleeping on the job:

The police statement said two “well-wishers” arrived at the hospital overnight and were stopped in a public area, where they were questioned by police. The police “recorded their details and advised the pair that they would not be allowed to see her,” the statement said, offering no further information about their identities.

The statement appeared to be responding to reports by British news outlets Tuesday that quoted Dr. David Rosser, medical director of the facility, as saying that “a number of people turned up claiming to be members of Malala’s family, which we don’t believe to be true, and have been arrested.”

[newcomer]

Imran Khan on Canadian TV.

If you want to hear the truth, the real political ideas and - sadly - mainstream media provocation and attempt at manipulation - - YouTube

Imran: “Friend but not a stooge”

Is that too much to ask?

[newcomer]

Now, this is wild. I posted this link with Imran’s interview last night and this morning I wake up to the news:

U.S. border officials boarded the Pakistani politician’s New York-bound American Airlines flight on Friday to escort him off the plane and question him about his views on the U.S. administration’s use of drone warfare.

Breaking News - Headlines & Top Stories | The Star

Now Americans are arresting people who question use of drone? Really? REALLY?? Not to mention how bizarre that must have been.

Wow. Just wow!

Land of free. Not of those who are not free, yet.

[NotfooledbyW]

I heard much chatter from the right that this ‘breakthrough’ was another example of an Obama FP screw-up…
Is this significant news to Democrats and the left and if not, why not?

“Insight - Pakistan influence on Taliban commanders helped Afghan breakthrough”

(Reuters) - Pakistan’s powerful military has played a central role in convincing Afghanistan’s Taliban rebels to hold talks with the United States, U.S. and Pakistani officials said, a shift from widely held views in Washington that it was obstructing peace in the region.

U.S. and Taliban officials were due to meet in Doha, the capital of Qatar, in the next few days, raising hopes for negotiated peace after 12 years of war between American-led forces and the Islamist insurgents.

Neighbouring Pakistan’s role in the war has been ambiguous - it is a U.S. ally but has a long history of supporting the Taliban as its proxy in Afghanistan, part of its wider jockeying with regional rival India.

Western officials believe Pakistan may now calculate that its interest is better served by helping to broker peace that would lead to the emergence of a friendly government in Kabul capable of stabilising Afghanistan and preventing chaos spilling over the border.

Several military and civilian officials told Reuters Pakistan helped persuade the “relevant Taliban commanders” to talk to the Americans and Afghans and also sought to convince them that getting into talks was in their interest.

“It would not have been possible without our facilitation. Convincing the Taliban that it was in Afghanistan’s interest and also convincing the other parties that this is what the Taliban actually have in mind,” one senior army officer said.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/uk-afghanistan-taliban-pakistan-insight-idUKBRE95J0EP20130620?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[NotfooledbyW]

I didnt see the new thread when I brought back this one.

Good stuff over there.

[Measure_for_Measure]

It’s in the US national interest that Al Qaeda not establish a foothold in Afghanistan. Women’s rights and democracy are secondary. Those who disagree with the last sentence need to tell me how many American lives should be sacrificed to impose those benefits.

It is in the Taliban’s interest to get the US the heck out of their country. And many of them are willing to negotiate the concept of banning terrorist training camps in their country. I means, it’s not too much to ask.

Also, the Taliban are not a monolith. I’ll list some of the armed opponents of the (corrupt and election-rigging) Karzai government, copy and pasted from here. They include “the Taliban under Mullah Omar (which also has potentially serious internal divisions); the Haqqani network; the Hizb-e-Islami of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar; the remnants of al-Qaeda in the region; the Pakistani Taliban; and anti-Indian terrorist groups based in Pakistan, some now in rebellion against the Pakistani state, others still allied to it. Then there are the other nations involved: Pakistan, and above all the Pakistani military and military intelligence service, India, Iran, China, and Russia.”

There are other players as well: “A short and by no means exhaustive list of these includes, on the anti-Taliban side: the US government and military (which of course have their own serious differences); the Karzai presidency and clan, and their immediate allies; non-Pashtun warlords and other leaders opposed to the Taliban; and Westernized Afghan officials and NGO figures in Kabul.”

Furthermore: “Each of these distrusts all the others, including, not least, their own ostensible allies.”
To those who don’t want to negotiate with the armed opposition to the non or at best quasi-democratic government in Kabul: how long do you want us to burn lives and treasure in Afghanistan? Would you be willing to lay your own life or that of a loved one for a task that really isn’t especially our business? Clearing the country of those who would attack the US is one thing. Imposing a corrupt government on it is another.

Yeah, yeah: we meant well. At least until we turned our attention towards Iraq, at which point the country wasn’t worth the focused attention that nation building requires. Furthermore, saying you “Mean well” is bullshit if you can’t be bothered to learn the difference between the the Haqqani network and the Hizb-e-Islami or read a goddamn book.

[NotfooledbyW]

According to Gen. Joseph F. Dunford, the ISAF commander A major milestone was reached last week.

How about it? Is Gen Dunford missing something that experts outside the military might know?

ISAF Commander Statement
ISAF Public Affairs Office
2013-06-CA-08

ISAF Commander Statement
KABUL, Afghanistan (June 23, 2013) – The following is a statement from Gen. Joseph F. Dunford, the ISAF commander:
"Given the many news stories this past week, it would be easy to forget the historic milestone we celebrated on June 18th. After more than a decade of conflict and sacrifice, the Afghan National Security Forces are now the lead for securing their people and their country and ISAF is in support of its Afghan partners.
The ANSF have made tremendous progress and are now clearly ready to assume the lead. In fact, they have been increasingly in the lead for the past several months. The capability and credibility of the ANSF is tangible evidence that Afghanistan is on the path to peace and prosperity. All Afghans should be proud and confident that their security will be provided by the sons and daughters of Afghanistan.

While the nature of the ANSF-ISAF relationship has continued to evolve, ISAF remains committed to helping bring about a stable and secure Afghanistan. We will support the continued development of the ANSF, and we will assist the ANSF and the Afghan Government to carry out secure, inclusive, free, and fair elections next year.
Longer term, the United States and other members of the coalition remain committed to a strategic partnership that will benefit the Afghan people for many years to come. We are committed to helping you build a better country; and we are committed to defeating those who threaten your future."

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/isaf-commander-statement.html

[NorthernBiker]

@NotfooledbyW

According to Gen. Joseph F. Dunford, the ISAF commander A major milestone was reached last week.

How about it? Is Gen Dunford missing something that experts outside the military might know?

http://www.isaf.nato.int/article/isaf-releases/isaf-commander-statement.html

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1

Watch this new documentary by Vice about the ‘quality’ of the Afghan Army and the cherry coating by US military officials and tell me if you still believe your press release.

I really encourage everyone to watch it, it’s quite eye opening and depressing to realize all the lives, time and treasure that has been wasted.

[Captain_Amazing]

@Monty

Now I’m really curious. What led the CNN reporter(s) to describe the Taliban as honest?

One of the problems with the government the Taliban replaced was that it was extremely corrupt. One of the big things that attracted people to the Taliban was that it was known to be against corruption, and when the Taliban came into an area, they’d go out of their way to root out corruption and immorality.

[ralph124c]

@NorthernBiker

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1

Watch this new documentary by Vice about the ‘quality’ of the Afghan Army and the cherry coating by US military officials and tell me if you still believe your press release.

I really encourage everyone to watch it, it’s quite eye opening and depressing to realize all the lives, time and treasure that has been wasted.

Yes..4000 lives, over $1 trillion, and we have created an illusion that will collapse. As I have said before, we (the USA) possess an unbelievable naivete about the world. We constantly ignore all advice, and get involved in these pointless wars. Of course, any general who tells the truth wold be swiftly demoted, so this guy plays the game, just it has been from Westmoreland on down

[NotfooledbyW]

@NorthernBiker

http://www.vice.com/vice-news/this-is-what-winning-looks-like-part-1

Watch this new documentary by Vice about the ‘quality’ of the Afghan Army and the cherry coating by US military officials and tell me if you still believe your press release.

I really encourage everyone to watch it, it’s quite eye opening and depressing to realize all the lives, time and treasure that has been wasted.

Your guy could be right, but I remain quite skeptical of anyone who puts out a documentary and does not get this critical fact right:

“The US and British forces are preparing to leave Afghanistan for good (officially, by the end of 2014)”

In February 2013, on his last day at the helm of NATO forces in Afghanistan, General John R. Allen described what he thought the war’s legacy will be: ‘‘Afghan forces defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens. This is victory, this is what winning looks like, and we should not shrink from using these words.’’

The US and British forces are preparing to leave Afghanistan for good (officially, by the end of 2014), and my time in the country over the last six years has convinced me that our legacy will be the exact opposite of what Allen posits—not a stable Afghanistan, but one at war with itself yet again. Here are a few encapsulated snapshots of what I’ve seen and what we’re leaving behind.

Ours and Brits and other ISAF troops are not ‘leaving for good’ nor are they leaving ‘officially’ by the end of 2014.

The US and other nations are committed to supporting Afghan Security Forces though 2024.
I’m not saying this will be a bloodless road to self-governance, but the Afghans do appear to be making ‘great strides’ toward staying free of Taliban theocratic Terror rule and advancing in the right direction.

The Taliban WILL NEVER retake Kabul and Kandahar City as they had it in 2001 prior to the 9/11 attack.

[NorthernBiker]

@NotfooledbyW

Your guy could be right, but I remain quite skeptical of anyone who puts out a documentary and does not get this critical fact right:

“The US and British forces are preparing to leave Afghanistan for good (officially, by the end of 2014)”

It’s been a awhile since I’ve seen the documentary, so I don’t remember the context of the quote. If you feel it effects the validity of of the documentary, that’s your right, but I’d still say it more more representative of what Afghanistan really is, then the current US government position.

The Taliban WILL NEVER retake Kabul and Kandahar City as they had it in 2001 prior to the 9/11 attack.

That is a rather strong statement, I wonder if the Soviets felt the same way. But seriously, I have no doubt depending on a sufficient level of support ISAF troops can keep Kabul and Kandahar. Controlling the other 99% of the country, I have my doubts.

[NotfooledbyW]

@NorthernBiker

It’s been a awhile since I’ve seen the documentary, so I don’t remember the context of the quote. If you feel it effects the validity of of the documentary, that’s your right, but I’d still say it more more representative of what Afghanistan really is, then the current US government position.

That is a rather strong statement, I wonder if the Soviets felt the same way. But seriously, I have no doubt depending on a sufficient level of support ISAF troops can keep Kabul and Kandahar. Controlling the other 99% of the country, I have my doubts.

The Soviets went at it totally different. McCrystal’s hearts and minds comes to my mind for the rural areas.