Never liked Bush but the shrub grows on ya

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*Originally posted by themoon *
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I too see Bush as incompetent, shallow — and credulous — but it’s not just a question of stature. Bin Laden and Hitler actively sought the death of peaceable people simply for being different: Jews, gays, Gypsies; “infidels,” period, in bin Laden’s case. I’m no Bush fan, but I see no evidence that he’s wicked, that he wants to inflict death and suffering on people just for being from some “out group.” There’s a real moral difference there, a stark one; it’s not just a matter of “stature.”

I don’t consider W’s “bring[ing] honor and integrity back to the White House” remarks uncivil. They were tactfully vague and quite mild compared to what he could have said, given Clinton’s personal and policy actions. (Indeed, principled left-wing critics of Clinton such as Pat Caddell, Christopher Hitchens, and Ralph Nader said far worse — it always seemed to me that the most cogent criticism of Clinton came from the left, but I digress.) W might have mentioned specifically how Clinton had every woman he’d ever had an affair with trashed by his flacks and leakers, and was preparing to do the same to Monica Lewinsky when her semen-stained blue dress was found — whereupon he demolished the Al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, a dubious target indeed, in a military action where he kept the Joint Chiefs in the dark (the plant produced most of that wretched country‘s pharmaceuticals and its destruction has cost tens of thousands of Sudanese their lives). Interesting timing, at any rate. Then there was the suspicious bombing of Iraq, which continued all throughout the House impeachment debate, and allowed Democrats to question the patriotism of Republicans proceeding with impeachment against “the Commander in Chief” in a time of military conflict. Again, interesting timing. (Mind you, I didn’t support Clinton’s impeachment, just as I wouldn’t support impeaching anyone for charges based on consensual sex, but on a personal level, his slander of his lovers was dishonorable, and his military actions during the House debate bloodcurdling.) How about Madeleine Albright’s statement that half a million Iraqi deaths as a result of sanctions were “worth it”? And Clinton’s granting a waiver to import 100,000 assault rifles from the People’s Republic of China after Wang Jun, head of Polytech (People’s Liberation Army weapons manufacturer) slipped him $600,000 in campaign funds, not to mention all his “colorful” associates and supporters from Webb Hubbell to James Riady to Roger Tamraz and Larry Lawrence. And of course Clinton began his tenure by firing all the US attorneys general, the better to put in all his own people. Not illegal, but an amazing power grab, and without precedent. Aren’t America’s liberals and Democrats supposed to cared about such things?

And I say all this as someone who voted for Clinton in two general elections and the 1992 primaries. I never got those who saw (or affected to see) him as a raving leftist — he was market-oriented in economics and moderate on social issues. I find those principles congenial in Republicans and Democrats alike. But… there were some profoundly unpleasant things about that amiable rogue, things that few Americans seemed to care much about. That disturbed, and still disturbs me. Does anything go so long as the trains run on time? I guess the spate of pardons at the end of his tenure, especially that granted Mark Rich, proved the straw that broke the camel’s back, even for many formerly strong supporters.

On the other hand, W’s civility was certainly calculated: all that business about “my opponent’s a good man, we just have different ideas.” Every time Gore started to make a strong attack in the debates, W acted hurt and and complained about Gore “questioning my heart.” And Gore would draw back. He fell into Bush’s niceness trap and didn’t flush Son of Shrub out of his “vague generalities.” Gore has only himself to blame for that.

I’d compare the old Willie Horton ad to Clinton’s condemnation of Sister Souljah before the NAACP convention in 1992 (you’ll recall that Clinton chastised the rapper for suggesting that blacks kill fewer blacks and more whites). Both opportunistic and designed to appeal to the white vote. Both worked brilliantly. The sort of thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but then, I sometimes think I’m a bit too exquisite in my sensibilities. Because divisive campaigning works. As such tactics go, what Bush the Elder and Clinton did there was pretty mild. Clinton’s statement, and Bush’s ads (paid for by an outside group supposedly — grain of salt alert! — not connected with his campaign) went after people who had said, and done, exceedingly nasty things. (And besides, it was pretty inevitable that some Bush backer would bring up Horton, given that Al Gore had already raised the issue against Dukakis in the Democratic primaries.) Neither said black person = thug. But yes, the race of the offender was no coincidence, the suggestion being in both cases that the candidate had the guts to stand up to thuggery when it came from blacks. I suggest you save your wrath for those who make unmistakable appeals to bigotry, such as Pat Buchanan, Jesse Helms, and Al Sharpton.

Scylla I am afraid elucidator’s original point was directed to all civilians, not military personnel. Of course elucidator jumped to the mini pit too. But I agree with his point that skepticism (for us civilians) is needed more than ever. This is precisely what they mean by that saying that eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

Why, none. If he does, I will not obey. That was rather my point, Scylla. Perhaps if you read more slowly?

Very little, in truth. When I turned 18, I recieved an invitation, but declined. But this much I do know: the difference between tactical leadership and strategic leadership. In a situation of immediate and present danger, a tactical leader is crucial, coordination saves lives, this is not in question. However, if you have been ordered to take up a postion in Dien Ben Phu, that is a whole different matter.

Three words: George Armstrong Custer.

A stirring story of courage. Utterly irrelevent, but stirring.

I will ignore that last paragraph, you’re probably already embarassed by it. I’m too much of a gentleman to rub it in. No, don’t thank me. Least I could do.

Elucidator, something tells me you haven’t actually read the cited essay. You can find it here. http://www.roycrofter.com/garcia.htm

As for leadership, have you not noticed that GWB set the country on a certain course. We are attacking the Taliban, who are not identical with Al Quaida. We are conducting the war using particular military and diplomatic strategies. We are taking certain domestic steps against terrorism, including detaining large numbers of people. These are controversial steps. A leader is necessary to set a course and keep us on it.

“A leader is necessary to set a course and keep us on it.”

Why? Says who? Well, leaders, of course. And they know best, don’t they. Wouldn’t say it if it weren’t true. Would they?

You seem to post this as an accepted, irrefutable principle. Howzabout we set the course? Howzabout we listen to our leaders, and either agree or chuck thier sorry asses into the street?

I sense elucidator has never lead or directed anything with money riding on the line.

A leader is necessary because leadership by committee, laying aside rhetorical posturing about “us” making decisions, is virtually always a disaster. Be it private sector or government. One needs to stick to decisions, sometimes the payoffs are not clear. Having the proverbial fickleness of public opinion, ill-informed and ill-prepared to understand the full menu of options before it, strikes me a fine recipe for disaster.

Checks to leadership are necessary for civilian leadership, helps put a check on errors. It is no substitute for leadership, to give direction. Take a look at a near-leaderless Italian democracy where “us” (or them) led in a million different directions at once. “We” is not a coherent entity, “we” can not always be appropriately informed at all times. Ergo, one delegates, upwards in a way, decisions to a set of folks who are supposed to be informed and make appropriate decisions. Periodic review, elections, board meetings, keep the decision makers at least moderately honest.

Posturing is all well and fine, but practical solutions are what is actually needed.

Osama bin laden is an intellectual skeptic, no? What makes him POWERFUL, and the biggest threat to our national security (including yours, elucidator) at the moment, is his ability to LEAD.

A house divided will never stand. Do you think these are just words? Abe Lincoln could have been the most intellecutally curious fellow ever to walk down the pike but it would have meant squat had he not been: 1) the president; and 2) able to convince people that he was right.

Intellectual skepticism without leadership is akin to writing a great book that no one reads. In the end, what’s the point?

This is quite beneath your usual level. Rather a pity.

You “sense”? Rather an implication without foundation, wouldn’t you say? Be that as it may, if a man who is not a meterologist tells you the sky is blue, it remains blue regardless of his qualifications. ad hominem, yes?

Laying aside for the moment my resentment of the implications of “posturing” (and I do resent it) on what do you base this sweeping generalization? Certainly not history, which is writ large primarily by “leaders”, and simply abounds with disasters attributable to blindly obeyed leaders. Would you care to make some comparison, disasters by committee vs. disaster by leader?

Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot!

It is precisely a substitute, it is the very foundation! We recognize that leaders are people, hence as venal and egoistic as ourselves. They are to be watched with cold-eyed clarity. They may suggest, they may not command! Therein lies the essential difference between democratic leadership and autocracy. Lest I be misunderstood, I am a fervent enemy of autocracy. It is not that the Emperor wears no clothes, it is that they are our clothes, and he wears them at our sufference.

Dogma stated as fact. Sez who?

One can only hope. But these are delegates, not “leaders”

See above, under “resentment”.

Good rant, elucidator, but do you in fact lack such experience?

This is arguing the converse. Saying that individual leadership sometimes fails doesn’t prove that leadership by committee ever works.

elucidator sound like s/he is contrasting dictatorship vs. anarchy – a disagreeable choice.

This war is a complicated endeavor. It requires coordinated military attacks, bases, materiel, battle plans, etc. It requires effective diplomacy to maintain cooperation of other nations. It requires continuing domestic support. Ir requires that all groups recognize the commitment, because that commitment will motivate them to cooperate. Furthermore the plans have to be flexible, since we do not know just how the enemy will react.

It requires leadership to get all these parts to work together. I do agree with elucidator that in a democracy, the people can force a change. So, it requires even better leadership to make sure that doesn’t happen, or even threaten to happen. Because, if various parties expect the war effort to flag, their cooperation will reduce.

Nobody’s saying that we need or want a dictator. We are saying that if Bush holds all these groups together and achieves his aims, he will ge given a lot of credit, and he will deserve it.

Contrast this with Clinton lobbing a few missiles at presumed enemy targets after previous terrorist attacks. Those actions required no leadership and they accomplished nothing.

Well, no. He is not. He is a religious fanatic who regards the very footprints of the infidel Americans upon the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia as being worthy of a declaration of “holy war” (was there ever as vile an oxymoron?)

The “threat” is not his ability to lead, it is the blind willingness of others to follow!

And, of course, I am quite aware that national security does include my own. Your aside could infer some rather unsavory implications as regards my loyalty. I will take it on faith that this is not your intention. If, however, I am mistaken, please advise.

*Originally posted by december *

Well, since I have already stated I consider that to be irrelevent, I can hardly answer that with any intellectual honesty, now can I? And “rant?” I had not noticed that you were a person of such delicate sensibility. But at least it’s a good rant, in your estimation.

He, actually. A lifelong victim of testosterone poisoning. And, no, if you see any such contrast it is your own invention entire.

Your offhanded swipe at Clinton’s leadership is noted, with the appropriate scorn. You do recall, don’t you, how quickly the “liberal media” began muttering about “Wag the Dog” scenarios? If he had tried to put together the current response, the Delay/Armey Army would have been rolling around on the floor of Congress, screaming thier heads off and tearing thier hair. Do you doubt it?

No, the threat is BOTH. Because had they no leader the terrorists wouldn’t have neither the organization nor funds to pull off stunts like 9/11.

As we’ve been trying to tell you, a plan with no leader is just…an idea.

In some countries you could be hanged as a traitor for making that proclamation. Oh yes, that would be Afghanistan.

See your quote starting with “Howzabout.” And was it not you that equated our democratically elected President with a “fuhrer”? Hell, I don’t have to imply anything.

And a thousand apologies for my use of a double negative in my post above. I swear my parents learned me better.

There’s skepticicism and then there’s a disposition to mistrust, deride, and assume the worst.

I don’t think it was our leader’s nor or military’s fault what happened in Vietnam. I think the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the Hanoi Jane’s and “baby killer,” shouters who with blithe total ignorance thought they knew better and undermined and sabatoged our country and dishonored the men who fought and died there.

So, there is a difference between keeping one’s eyes open and not taking any wooden nickels, and using skepticism as an excuse to undermine critical leadership.

The wag the dog stories were just as dangerous to slick Willy and just as damaging to our country as any of the unfounded Dubya conspiracy, incompetance, or outright distrust scenarios being thrown about.

By all accounts Bill Clinton was very concerned about Osama Bin Laden and terrorism when he wasn’t getting head from interns.

It is a scary thought indeed to consider whether if to avoid being crucified in the court of public opinion, and to dispel these rumors, Clinton might have had to lighten up his counterterror campaign at a crucial time for public relations reasons. Maybe a cruise missile with Osama’s name on it didn’t get sent because of this, or maybe a terrorist camp wasn’t bombed that held some of the people training for the WTC attack.

If that is indeed the case, the people, the press, and the GOP hamstrung Bill when he had the chance to preempt this attack.

I’d hate to think that’s true, but it’s certainly possible. Knowing that, I’d hate to have to wonder about it again in the future.

I refer to to pretty much any Republican during the Clinton administration for a clear example of this.

That’s a rather um, novel opinion. And here I always though it was an attempt to prevent getting into a shooting war with China.

Again, I refer you to republicans re. Clinton for a clear example of the worst behavior.

Somewhat less so, Bush was elected even though many of his supporters felt he was less than personally competent. The argument is that they were electing a team, and that he is good at choosing team members.

[Emphasis mine] You’re a real piece of work Scalia Even now, you just can’t pass up the chance to get a dig in. Pardon me if I think your reason for a lecture on ‘supporting the pres’ is self-serving and hypocritical.

More than scary, this is most likely what actually happened. It’s not even arguable that he was intentionally hamstrung, the only question is if he could have managed to take out Bin Laden even if he wasn’t. Republicans did their best to cripple Clinton while he was in office. Now we all get to reap the whirlwind.

Pardon me if I think that this is another example of Republicans wanting the Democrats to play nice so that they can take advantage of them.

I’ll tell you what, convince Bush to behave in a bipartisan fashion, and I’ll consider not trashing him. So long as he’s talking nice in public and backing Armey’s partisan legislation behind the scenes, he doesn’t deserve to be treated as the leader any but republicans.

tj

Which applies to the current situation how?

So idiocy with a motive is ok?

I’ll tell you what, convince Bush to behave in a bipartisan fashion, and I’ll consider not trashing him. So long as he’s talking nice in public and backing Armey’s partisan legislation behind the scenes, he doesn’t deserve to be treated as the leader any but republicans.

tj **
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I’ll tell you what. Go ahead and do whatever you want to do. I somehow doubt your Ted Koppel so it’s not like your opinion is gonna change the course of History.

But, if you think Clinton was screwed and treated badly and it cost this country terribly because of it, what kind of person would purposefully repeat that mistake from the other side and fuck up the country some more just to get even with Bush?

Sometimes, Scylla, you annoy me. Oftimes, you really piss me off. This goes to 11. Its likely a generational thing, I suspect I’m rather older than yourself. I felt very passionately about this issue then, and still do.

http://www.hpol.org/lbj/vietnam/ has some tapes you might find interesting. It is LBJ conversing with such as Adlai Stevenson. Wherein he states that he doesn’t believe that the war could be won. He knew. Robert McNamara knew. And they did it anyway.

Me and mine, we tried. Futilely, I believe. Ineffectually. Saying the wrong things at the wrong time to the wrong people. Enduring slander, tear gas, the uncomprehending dismay of family, who sincerly believed that to question our leaders in a time of war was treasonous. I make no comparison to the suffering of those who fought and died, that would be ludicrous. But it was not lightly done, nor “blithely”, of that I can assure you.

How many died? Some 50,000 of our own, no one knows how many Vietnamese. Some guess a million, others two. Just numbers, now. And for what?

Because our leaders were wrong, and would not admit it. And turned to us, looked us in the eye, and said “theres light at the end of the tunnel”. They lied. No other verdict is possible.

And to this very day, men like you are willing to blame me. Go to Hell, Scylla.

And here endeth the rant.

Oh boo-hoo elucidator.

If you were out getting laid, smoking pot, and spitting at Marines like my father way back in the 60’s, deluding yourself into thinking you were being meaningful I would hoped that the experience and the ensuing 30 years would have been time enough for you to grow into adulthood.

I think that’s the third time you’ve lobbed deliberate insults at me in GD, your little show of getting miffed just so you can deliberately violate the rules and take a cheap shot grows a little older and more transparent with each iteration.

You forgot that little part about him helping to win the War of Independence.

I seem to recall Lincoln doing a few piddly little things before becoming president also.

elucidator:

Apparently it’s either clouded your judgement or addled your senses, because…

…those tapes don’t say anything of the kind, and stating they do means you’re either deluding yourself or simply lying.

They show LBJ agonizing over Vietnam, concerned about American lives, the potential for escalation, the difficulty of the mission, and it’s outcome.

I would hope that any President contemplating military action would have the same kind of concerns and reservations.

You’re wasting my time. Did you hope I wouldn’t actually listen to the tapes and just take your word for it?