New bin Laden videotape: Again, he avoids the important question.

Great Debates
41

Boy ** akrako1 ** That first site was a bunch of drivel. I hope you realize that. Did you happen to click on any of the links there? This Yo-Yo is suspicious of the amount of dust being blown out of the south tower as it collapsed.

Yeah. Right.

I downloaded the film. The author is obviously on crack. There is nothing even about the way the building collapses, it doesn’t fall in on itself, it falls over itself, like a building made of wooden blocks.

Jeez! All the place needs a page about black helicopters and another with tin foil helmet blue prints.

But as for you, you make some good points though, I had never really thought much about.

I must admit, it is convenient, but for what? I can’t see any agenda that these things might help support.

** Mr. Miskatonic ** wrote:

Yes there is, and it is used to crash big planes into stuff (I saw the video of this, it was awsome):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2606plane.html

(my italics)

Just like a big giant (and expensive) Model airplane.

42

Certified pilot speaking here: what the hell is a “perfect bank??” For that matter, what the hell is a “military-quality bank??”

Turning a plane is the easiest thing in the world: point the yoke in the desired direction, apply a bit of rudder. For steeper banks, turn yoke more, more rudder, and pull back on the yoke a bit to maintain altitude.

If anyone says that it takes more than a couple hours of flight school to nail down that skill, they’re making things up. Not that that charge would make any difference here… :rolleyes:

43

If anything, the banking is evidence of an inexperienced pilot, not an experienced one. An experienced pilot could probably fly the planes straight in, but I would expect an inexperienced pilot to be turning and making corrections at the last minute. And when an airplane turns, it banks.

What’s a “precise military bank”?

44

I should have qualified with “there’s no remote control you can put into a commercial aircraft that will do this”. Conspriacy nutters have been hinting that a dozen lines of code in the autopilot were all that was needed, or that a little magic black box (a la Batman Returns) to sieze control of the airplane. In reality, installing a remote control system takes time and a lot of obvious hardware. Plus most remote control systems still cannot override the pilot.

But then again, some of these nutters insist no plane hit the Pentagon and that the Towers collapsed from a controlled explosion, simply becuase “it looked like one” to their incompetant eyes.

They never get down to “why”, except to mutter something about “oil”. This makes even less sense. As much as I hate Bush, I seriously doubt he’s going to risk becoming the most evil human being ever elected president collapsing towers and crippling a weak economy just so his oil baron buddies can save a few dollars on each barrel.

45

Alleged hijackers?

So what were the passengers on Flight 93 referring to when they called loved ones on their cellphones and said they were being hijacked?

Were they just making it up? Or were they…(gasp)…part of the conspiracy!!!

46

“Ok so let me get this straight akrako1. You think Al Qaeda, and OBL had nothing to do with the september 121th attacks, further more you think there were no hijackers even on the planes, and finally that they were remotely controlled to hit the targets they hit. Who controlled the remotes” - Phlosphr

No, I never said that. I was responding to the following quote by Sailor and others who seem to think that the Al Queda connection is beyond reproach. I think I provided enough evidence to state that not everybody thinks this way.

Quote from Sailor: “I do not think anybody seriously denies Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11.”

As far as who I think is to blame. I have absolutely no doubt that either 1) the U.S. government knew in advance that there was an attack coming and purposefully did not stop it, and specifically impeded the investigation that would have uncovered the plot or 2) actively crafted the mission, using remote control access to the planes, and blamed the disaster on radical Muslims to both misdirect the public, and forward their own foreign policy agenda.

Somehow, a lot of people don’t think I’m nuts (though they don’t seem to be on this board)

"A survey produced by the respected Forsa institute and published in the weekly Die Zeit in July found that 31 percent of Germans under the age of 30 believed the US government was directly involved in the September 11 attacks. Amid all age groups, the rate was “only” 19 percent.

…Frankfurt-based publishing house Zweitausendeins (2001) boasts the runaway success of Mathias Broecker’s book ‘Conspiracies, Conspiracy Theories and the Secrets of September 11’ on its website, with more than 105 000 copies sold in 10 months. A follow-up volume has just hit bookstores.

Broecker, a former journalist with the leftist daily Tageszeitung, argues that dozens of “unanswered questions” about the attacks point to a spectacular cover-up on the part of the US administration.

More than 70 000 Germans have also bought ‘The CIA and September 11’ by former federal research minister Andreas von Buelow, in which he argues the planes were piloted into targets in New York and Washington not by Islamic extremists but rather by remote control.

A third work, ‘Operation 9/11’ by public television reporter Gerhard Wisnewski, claims that the twin towers of the World Trade Centre were wired with explosives, has already secured a fourth print-run after three weeks in stores.

France’s Thierry Meysson has found success at home and in Germany with ‘9/11: The Big Lie’, which argues that the attack on the Pentagon was an attempted coup d’etat by US military officials to justify future wars. " - http://www.rense.com/general41/gain.htm

See what can happen if you don’t have a corporate controlled, sensored media? People actually get to have public discussions of ‘controversial’ events. Or maybe some of you can respond with your prejudice toward Europends and how they’re anti-science? (as I’ve seen a lot of on this board)

Here’s a good link that extools how STUPID and MANIPULATABLE Americans are:
70 per cent in U.S. believe Hussein, 9-11 link: poll
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030906.wpoll0906/BNStory/International/
Our own stinkin’ 9/11 report extablished conclusively that there is NO Iraq connection. Another example of sheep eating up the propaganda.

As far as the cell calls made from flt 93, unless you personally recieved one personally Stephe96, then you don’t know squat for sure. Like every flimsy part of the government’s ‘story’, there’s been plenty of debate on whether it’s even possible to make calls from that altitude.

If some of you are interested in researching the truth, see the following web site:
www.cooperativeresearch.org
This is THE best site for all your 9/11 information. Not some craazy ‘Conspiracy theorist’ - nearly ALL THEIR INFORMATION IS FROM SITES FROM MAINSTREAM MEADIA. They have a superbly detailed timeline of the 9/11 events, if you read the timeline and are not conviced that something funny is going on, then you’re a lost cause.

If you folks want specific sites to have a productive debate, I’d be happy to provide them. If you guys are simply going to buy the government line, then I’m done yelling at a brick wall.

47

The banking, IMO, was not the sign of an inexperienced pilot, but was done to cause destruction on as many floors of the towers as possible.

48

Well, damned if you do … . Really, this is object-oriented argument.

And, akrako, just because something’s popular doesn’t mean it’s credible. There are a lot of people in the Muslim world who still believe that no Jews were killed in the World Trade Center attack.

Let’s lay it on the line here … I am an American. I read all kinds of news sources and have been exposed to all kinds of things, including Broecker’s allegations. I despise George Bush and I despise his administration. I believe they conduct their policies on behalf of a radical right-wing agenda. I believe they have pursued a disastrous and short-sighted foreign policy and domestic policy. I believe that their inattention to terrorist issues was partly responsible for the success of the Sept. 11 attack. I believe that they are guilty of misfeasance to a degree that deserves impeachment. I believe they have taken advantage of the attacks of Sept. 11 to pursue an unrelated and misguided foreign and domestic policy.

But there is absolutely no credible evidence that the Bush administration either engineered or deliberately permitted the attacks to go forward. And there is absolutely no credible evidence for any conspiracy that would have to be massively extensive in order to be successful.

We all know that the Bush administration has engaged in acts both criminal and incompetent. The point is, we know it; it’s not a secret. For a conspiracy that big to have occurred, there must be a lot of witnesses to that conspiracy. Only should such hard evidence start coming out will I or any serious-minded person even begin to entertain the possibility that –

To actually have hard evidence of such things and then consider whether it might be true is one thing. To grasp at every stray rumour propagated by the ignorant, the malicious, and the paranoid (including the John Birch Society, for god’s sack!) and then to say that you “have no doubt” that it is true, is evidence of nothing more than the same kind of self-delusion that afflicts the right-wing, corporate-controlled media in the United States.

49

Show me.

On a day like September 11th you choose to write things like that? On an American based message plateform? Do you know you are on a board that’s sole purpose is to fight ignorance? Your broad generalizations, bogus links to conspiracy theory propaganda do not impress anyone on these boards. Your immature rant makes me think you’re highly suggestable nature allows you to believe such crap. Crude at best…

50

And that’s what every conspricy theory comes down to: I know something, those of you who don’t agree are sheep. Conspiracy theories are the opiate of the self-impressed.

We’ve seen what you’ve produced so far and there’s no promise of anything better coming down the pipe. Your arguements have been trashed by people with a lot more knowledge than you. All you have are a handful of allegations which don’t make a lick of sense.

But hey, I’m game. Start a Great Debate thread. I’ll happily participate. But don’t expect us to go agreeing with this craziness just because you have a few links. We aren’t “buying the goverment line”, we’re buying the common sense line.

51

We all buy the government line.

52

“Your arguements have been trashed by people with a lot more knowledge than you.” - Mr. Miskatonic
Funny, somewhere I missed that in the thread. Yes, people responded and we had some constructive debate about the remote control point, but that’s about it.
some points that HAVEN’T been responded to, let along debunked:

  • Bin Ladin in the video ‘admitting he planned the attack’ - looks nothing like him.
  • Reports of hijackers being poor pilots
  • Hijackers still alive and were never listed on manifest lists (though all other passengers are accounted for)
  • The governement has had remote piloting abilites since the 50’s (per my cite). how is this laughable that they could do so now?
    I can make tons more cites I want, but it seems you can’t respond to them in an intelligent debate format.

First, I’m an an American. I do love my country, and thusly despise the government. I love my freedoms, and have been saddened by the loss of rights we have endoured.

Of course, there is no direct evidence that we were involved, only .
How many different ‘coincidences’ point to the fact the we knew about the attacks and obstructed the defense and investigation…
a brief list:

  1. fighter jets are required to be scrambled with 3 minutes of a POSSIBLE hijack. The planes targeting DC were wandering around for almost an hour! We knew we were under attack, both towers had been hit, and nothing was done. Bush in fact kept reading a childrens story for 30 minutes after being told that we were under attack. The east coast is dotted with military bases, any supersonic jet could have reached the planes within minutes.
  2. obstruction of investigations. One of the most obvious, the application for a search warrant for searching Massoui’s computer was modified by the upper echelons of the FBI so that it would be rejected (the only such request rejected in, I believe, for years before hand…). This information comes from the agent that made the request.
  3. How about the 'BUSH KNEW" headline of the Post (i believe). I guess they’re crazy conspiracy theorists.
  4. The utter string of lies we’ve been told. First, we never thought they’d attack, then after a little truth came out, we never though they’d use planes as weapons for god’s sake!, then after it came out that in August there was a specific report about using aircraft as weapons, we’ll we just didn’t connect the dots. yeah right.
  5. the WTC buildings were designed to withstand a plane hitting.
  6. the CIA knew that specific Al Queda terrorists were inside the country, and didn’t alert anyone.

the list goes on and on… try looking at www.unanswerequestions.org for a massive list of government contradictions, omissions, and lies.

Did you even bother to look at www.cooperativeresearch.org ?
All the information I ‘immaturely rant’ has been in major media! These are verifiable stories, that have been fact-checked. Try actually responding to my claims instead of personally attacking me.

What do you think of the fact that 70% of Americans believe the Iraq had something to do with 9/11? i think this supports my claim pretty damn well. I do have to give the public the benefit of the doubt. Our media is so totally controlled, that most people don’t have access to enough counter viewpoints. People in other countries have the benefit of a more free press, and thus their opinions are greatly different from most americans.

I’m sorry if I’m offending people with my anti-American government talk, but keep in mind, I’m saying nothing terribly new. The United States has a clear history of lying to the public to get into wars. The sinking of the Maine preceeding the Spanish-American war, the ‘suprise’ attack by Japan after we blockaded them, that we knew about. The ‘Golf of Tonkin’ Vietnam incident that ended up to be bullshit. We discovered that after Pearl Harbor, that if you traumatize the public, they’re more maluable. It’s sad, but it’s the same thing that Nazi’s did with the Reichtag. Kill some innocents, blame it on an undesirable middle-east group, and drum up support.

The “Project for the New American Century” a Bush project, provides a roadmap to Iraq and beyond:
“Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor…”
http://www.terraknowledge.net/news/terrak040503a.htm

53

going back to the remote control theory, since there has been a new film found of the 1st impact, you can now clearly see that there is an unidentified object attached to the bottom of the first plane. See:
http://www.rense.com/general41/inex.htm
http://www.rense.com/general41/ac.htm
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa11.htm.
http://www.rense.com/general41/moreev.htm

GargoyleWB, can you explain this?

54

:rolleyes:

55

Not to repeat myself, but how can YOU explain the fact that passengers on Flight 93 told people that their plane was hijacked, even going so far as to describe their appearance and their actions?

Also, where are the reports of unidentified persons driving out to the runways at Logan Airport and taking the time to attach…whatever…the bottom of the plane?

Please, people…apply a little logic here…

56

These websites are hilarious. Frankly, if Bush managed to have four American airliners hijacked in broad daylight and THEN managed to secretly substitute, in broad daylight, four OTHER planes armed with missiles while at the same time somehow making the first four planes, passengers and all, vanish completely without a trace, in broad daylight, and THEN manage to remotely guide the substitute planes into predesignated target buildings…all without a single witness…well, then he is the smartest person the face of the planet and deserves to be president for life.

57

Even assuming you were correct:
And the pilots, mechanics, and luggage loaders, not to menton passengers, stewards, control officers, etc. all missed this how? And not one of them mentioned that some suspicious men were hooking up the wiring with this giant object on the bottom of the plan all night?

As to the question regarding medical determination of the deceased: its possible. They look at things like dental patterns of fillings, for example. You can tell a lot about people by their dentistry, including, roughly, place of origin.

58

Try: Every post that wasn’t yours.

Only to kooks and conspiracy nuts. Bin Laden looks less like himself in the ‘recent’ video as well.

They were poor pilots. It doesn’t take skill to crash a plane into something.

Fake IDs will do that.

Because you can’t just install systems like this at will. It involves the complicity of the Airline’s maintenance depot, as well as the Airline. That’s a lot of people "in’ on the seekrit gov’ment conspiracy.

That has not been true since the cold war ended. Even the handfull of "ready to fly’ planes would likely not be armed. Especially from the bases that had a chance to intercept a 9/11 plane.

What were they going to do? “You! Get in the plane , fly over Washington and shoot down the terrorist plane!” “How do I know which one is the terorrist plane?” “It look slike a commercial airliner!, BY the way, you’ve got dummy ammo and no armed missles”.

Scrambling fighter jets ain’t like dropping aquarter in the video game farmboy.

See above. What you claim is simply untrue. Getting a plane in the air is a far different from getting an armed and prepared plane in the air.

I admit to knowing nothing about this, but I’ve seen it listed along with “Jews knew and stayed home” lists. Doesn’t add much credence. I do know that the FBI was taking pains to avoid letting their field agents go harassing every brown-skinned guy in the US.

Bush had a warning of possible airline hijacking by terrorists. He had not reason to think they would use the jet planes as guided missiles. There’s a big difference between the two.

That they failed to connect the dots is not a sign of complicity, perhaps you need a little Hienlein wisdom in your diet?

Designed for 1970’s airplanes. And they worked. The plane crash did not destroy the building. But the burning jet fuel (and later other materials) heated the steel. Steel is a wonderful material but at a certain temperature it looses 50% of its structural strength. I’m sure the engineers of the WTC did a great job of design but very few can be expected to design with a 100% structural load redundancy factor.

So far, you’re not doing well.

59

I explain it is seeing faces in the clouds.

60

There were more witnesses than just Flight 93.

A stewardess on one of the WTC planes called her airline to tell them of the hijacking, telling them a passenger had been murdered and giving a seat number.

On the web (I beleive at airdisaster.com) you can listen to ATC tapes from Cleveland where the hijacker of Ft. 93 apparently accidently keys the transmit mic rather than the intercom, he’s recorded trying to tell passengers that there is a bomb on board and they are headed back to the airport.

Barbera Olson, a coservative commentator and author and wife of the Solicotor General was on the Pentegon flight. She got through to her husband and told him what was going on. Her last words were that the pilot was with her, and what should she tell him to do.

Atta and one other hijacker are on tape arriving for a connecting flight in Portland, Maine the morning of the attack. They connected that way in order to reduce suspision about four arabs traveling together. In fact, the reason we have his luggage (which contained his will, burial instructions and some clothes for the great beyond) is because the airline did a typical airline thing, and didn’t load them on the plane in Boston.

There have been statements in the media that the hands of a stewardess were found on top of a building near the WTC, bound with a nylon strap.

And as to the headline “Bush Knew”, IIRC, that grew out of a threat report that Bush was given in July or August ot 2001 that indiicated an increased chance of a terrorist attack in the weeks to come. The report, though, has never been characterized as having information specific enough to really act on. It did not say “Terrorists will hijack an unknown number of American airliners and use them as missles”

Is it possible to remotely control an airliner? Maybe, but that ignores that you’d have to figure out how to do it without anyone letting on. We don’t have a single call from a single passenger or crew to anyone that the plane is flying itself and they can’t control it. If that happened, you could bet that the pilots would be on the horn to the maintenance hub to troubleshoot the problem (as what happened in the crash of an Alaska Airlines jet off Calif. a few years back).