Yes, obviously.
My point is that I was responding to a post that claimed the Targs don’t care about rules at all and so would have no problem killing Dunk after he wins a trial. If that were true they could just break the rules beforehand. And you wouldn’t have Maekar in private telling his son that he can’t refuse a trial by combat.
Another point on the story from Ser Arlan - if Dunk had just been imagining it, he would have been beat to hell with the black eye. But he was conspicuously looking just like he did before the tournament. Because it was before the tournament.
At the very least, the director and writers wanted us to assume it was a flashback, not a dream.
Dunk was imagining being able to have a conversation with Ser Arlan on that last day (and ask him the question), before he died near that tree. That’s why Duncan was uninjured.
Or he was remembering such a conversation, which is what I think. We’ve seen several flashbacks; we haven’t seen any dream or imagination sequences.
Maybe the show-runners will clear this up at some point.
Huh? Why? I wouldn’t expect him to be beat up in his fever dream just because he’s beat up in real life? That would be very strange.
Then why was Arlan looking like he hadn’t been stabbed and wasn’t dying, and where was the rain or at least the clouds?
I completely disagree. We saw Arlan and Dunk ride up to the spot where Arlan dies, and then we saw him die, and in neither scene was it a sunny day. There was no time for the sky to clear.
I can’t reconcile the sunny day with that scene being a real flashback.
If it was meant to be a flashback, the sky (and Arlan) should have looked like they did between the scene where they arrived at the spot, but instead he looks and acts fine other than being totally cryptic.
Yep, that’s my take as well.
What’s funny, though, is that even without the interpretation of the scene as a dream rather than a flashback, we get what seems to be confirmation that Dunk was never knighted moments earlier, when the Baratheon guy says that the Targaryen who died was judged harshly by the gods because he fought a duel against warriors who were sworn to protect him, and the gods don’t favor a fraud; to which Dunk responds, “then why did they favor me?”.
For what it’s worth:
Emphasis mine.
BTW, interesting musical choice; playing Sixteen Tons over the closing credits. That song is about how the poor are oppressed. The song talks about how the coal miners had to dig up 32,000 pounds of coal each day just to get paid, and then the only place to spend their wages was at a company store, using company scrip. And in Westeros, the smallfolk are at the mercy of the lords and landowners.
I’m assuming the scene was, in fact, a flashback to a real conversation.
Yes, there is some ambiguity as to whether Ser Arlan actually knighted Dunk between Dunk asking “why did you never knight me” and Ser Arlan actually dying, presumably a short time later.
However I wonder what is the point in terms of plot or building tension or whatever? For all intents and purposes, everyone believes Dunk is a knight and there is no one who can really say otherwise.
I suppose the real question here is at what point does Dunk himself truly believe himself a knight? A common theme in GoT is conflicting duties and perceptions of power and authority.
“Will of the gods” is to appease the smallfolk who need to believe in the divine right of the rulers to rule.
In reality, a “trial by combat” is less about letting the gods sort it out as it is a form of “might makes right”. Yes, we could debate the charges in a court of law through a process of reasoned evaluation of the evidence. Or we can “let the gods decide” and you can take on Ser Gregor “The Mountain” Clegane or Ser Jaime Lannister or we can do a “7 v 7”. Me and my Kingsguard against you and whoever you can find in the next hour or so.
I imagine one benefit of the “trial by combat” is exactly what we witness here. To serve as a sort of check and balance against lords just picking fights with whomever and hiding behind their title. Aerion picked a fight with a 6’4" hedge knight by being a jerk. By all rights he should have fought him one on one. Instead he tried to hide behind this “Trial of Seven” and even his own father called him out on it.
So really there was a lot of blame to go around.
So really a lot of stupid petty shit that escalated into the death of the heir to the Iron Throne.
Maekar also said Egg was his “last son”. Because the other two basically suck and are unfit to rule.
For what it’s worth, Wikipedia says it’s a flashback, but I suppose we won’t know for sure until the director/producers say:
In a flashback, Dunk asks Arlan why he was never knighted. Arlan retorts that a true knight always finishes a story.
As for whether Dunk was knighted or not, I think the larger point of the character, the book, and ultimately the whole series of novellas (and presumably the show as well) is that it doesn’t matter. What matters is how he behaves and treats others, not whether he went through some ceremony. By his actions, he’s a “true knight”, or at least on his way to becoming one, whether or not he was dubbed by Ser Arlan. And my guess is that while he doesn’t realize it now, eventually he will.
Minor quibble that doesn’t impact your point: there’s a third son (2nd youngest), Aemon, who’s currently studying at the Citadel to be a Maester.
Four sons in total; the would-be maester, the asshole, the drunk and Egg.
And to mention again, this is the Maester Aemon who taught Samwise, sorry, Samwell, in the nightwatch. He got offered king and turned it down.
And only one of them a psycho. One could argue Daeran’s a bit “touched” with his visions, but he’s basically sane. Maekar’s coin flips turned out okay, relatively speaking - four sons, three sane, two competent. Not bad for a Targaryen. Of course his father had married outside the line and so did Maekar.
ETA: Oh and two more or less sane daughters. Even better.
I think keeping the secret is the point. He’s a good honorable person who is hiding a huge deceit. It will gnaw at him throughout the series. And ultimately won’t matter.
The show runner, Ira Parker, confirms that the conversation with Ser Arlan was a flashback, not a dream or imagined:
There’s a moment in the finale flashback when Dunk reveals that he wasn’t knighted by Ser Arlan. Why did you want to make that clear?
PARKER: It’s fascinating to me that that’s what you got out of that scene. At that moment, Dunk had never been knighted by Ser Arlan. He says, “Why did you never knight me?” And then, Ser Arlan dies, and we think it’s over. But then, he’s back and, as far as we know, the continuation of that scene is, “Boy, go get me my sword,” and then he knights him. There is no conformation, one way or the other, coming out of that scene. That’s exactly how Mr. R.R. Martin requested it. It remains [ambiguous] and people can decide for themselves.
That is quite literally the opposite of what the trial by combat is. It’s just a way for the mighty to deny justice to the downtrodden. Poor people have no training, or armor or any chance in hell of beating even the child of a lord. It’s a complete and total denial of any chance at justice.
I think a trial by combat is only available to nobles and highborn in Westeros. So justice ultimately goes to whomever employs the strongest swordsmen.
As I expected. That scene was the writers screwing with the audience.
Duncan asks Arelen why he never knighted him, then Arlen doesn’t respond, and it’s implied that he died. And therefore, in the season finale, they drop a bombshell and end the ambiguity.
Then Arlen wakes up and continues talking, as the writers snatch it away from the audience, like a guy teasing a dog.
I even said “You bastards!” out loud as it happened.
As for Maekar, I didn’t think he was cruel. I thought he was surprisingly and refreshingly respectful of Duncan, and commiserated with him about the fallout from the trial, as they will both be in the same boat in regards to suspicion.
And his comments about Duncan’s foot being worth less than a prince’s life was from grief. It’s not like he attacked Duncan or anything.
He came across as a man trying to do his best for his kids.
He was a huge dick the first time they met at the very least.
To be fair, the first time they met his sons were missing, and Dunk was lurking around trying to ask about getting into the tournament.