You’re not running a red if you’re already in the intersection. Aside from the clueless people that won’t pull into the intersection during a non-protected green, people that slam on their brakes for a yellow are morons. As long as the light’s still yellow when you enter the intersection, the fact that it turns red while you’re still there doesn’t mean that you’ve run a red light.
For everyone that’s indicating that it’s dangerous: why?
[Moderator Note]
Please see my instructions in post #34:
[QUOTE=Colibri]
This is GQ. Please restrict your answers to the legal aspects of this question, or to what standard driver’s manual or driving schools have to say about it. We don’t need to hear about how annoyed you are at other drivers for whatever reason. If you need to express yourself on this issue, pleas open a Pit thread. Further bickering or name calling between posters on either side of the issue may be subject to an official warning; likewise disparaging comments about drivers who use a strategy you don’t approve of.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, please refrain from such remarks in this thread.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
State laws vary. I would like to suggest legislators are ______, but maybe I shouldn’t. In my state, the law says nothing about the light when you enter the intersection. It states you must clear the intersection before the light turns red. So if you pull into the intersection as soon as the light turns green and are unable to complete your left due to oncoming traffic before the light turns red, you are a law breaker. The only safe course is to set there behing th ecrosswalk blocking all the people behind you until you can complete your left before the light turns red. Reasonable, wise, safe? Remember, you can be rear ended or even shot.
Frankly aside from the days I don’t set wheel on public highways, I doubt there are many I don’t violate some traffic law, especially speed limits. I will continue to show consideration for those behind me and pull into the intersection to wait for my chance to make a left.
Sorry. I didn’t see that my choice of words violated that, but you’re right I suppose. :smack:
I have heard that it may be illegal, but as several recent cites say, entering the intersection to wait is legal. Some people may think it is illegal, and wait. Some may be timid drivers. The world is full of idiots, and they are usually in front of me. Interesting that the one cite says for that jurisdiction, the first person may enter the intersection, but not anyone behind them. One car per light??? I light to tailgate the guy in front turning left.
The “don’t block the box” would apply only in places like Manhattan and other downtowns, where even when the light turns the lane(s) you are turning into may not have the space to accomodate you when you complete the turn. That is a judgement call - if there’s no room when you are ready to enter the intersection, then wait. If the cars don’t move by the time the light turns red, then you sit through a light. Better to sit and wait than to sit and block… (Unless the move pattern for those lanes is such that they advance and fill up gain when your light is red. Sucks to drive in a busy downtown…)
Plenty to be behind you too. I drive 2 lane roads a lot. People will catch up to me and trail along a couple of car lengths behind me even though there are plenty of clear straight aways where a safe pass would be easy.
Getting back to urban intersections, there are the ones that come flying up behind you when stopped at a light. They leave little margin for error as they make a sudden stop about 2 feet behind me. Noted to you truck driver. Have you noticed when you are that close, how well your 6’ high headlights light up the inside of my car? do you realize some people have mirrors showing what is behind them?
As noted, traffic laws vary from state to state. In my state, one is allowed to complete a left turn if one entered the intersection on a green light. I drive as most here have commented, pulling into the intersection if it is empty, remaining behind the stop line if there is a vehicle ahead of me trying to do the same.
Those of you who think it’s okay to enter the intersection on yellow/amber might want to check your state statutes for verification. That is absolutely not the case here. If you enter an intersection on a yellow and fail to clear it before red, you’ve run a red light. Almost nobody actually knows this though, and most people assume that entering on a yellow is legal.
We do not have a “don’t block the box” statute, and I’ve seen situations where a vehicle has spent more than one full cycle in an intersection. Annoying, yes, but not illegal. (I was present for a traffic case where a driver had been ticketed for running a red light. He was able to demonstrate that he had legally entered the intersection on a green, remaining there unable to proceed through two light cycles. The judge dismissed the citation.)
FWIW, I have a CDL, and am pretty familiar with my state’s traffic laws.
So in short: If you’ve entered an intersection on green, whether to turn or proceed straight, you have the right to proceed through at the earliest safe opportunity. If you enter the intersection on a yellow/amber and fail to clear the intersection prior to the light showing red, you have run a red light and may be cited.
Kentucky says (in Kentucky Regulatory Statute 189.338(1)(d))
In MO, when I was taught to drive, the law was that you sit at the line until you can successfully complete the turn. It is possible the law has since changed, but I cannot check, as our state’s websites are apparently offline due to hardware failure.
Granted, it’s also illegal to pull into the center left-turn only lane, except to make a left turn, but most people around here, including the police, use it as an entrance lane because it is nearly impossible to enter traffic otherwise, so laws might exist but be inappropriate for conditions.
In Michigan, that’s not codified as illegal, i.e., if the light turns red. The law reads that one must stop for a yellow, unless stopping is unsafe. Hence it’s not illegal to enter an intersection on a yellow, and the safety of not stopping will be between you and the cop, or you and the judge. As it pertains to a left turn after the light has turned red, though, it’s also not codified. However entering on a green is permitted, and although not stated in code, exiting from the intersection is the obvious choice versus just sitting there.
I wish more people were cited for this. It’s plainly coded into Michigan’s MCL that left turn lanes aren’t for this purpose. U-turns are also legal unless posted otherwise, and so for those people-I-can-no-longer-criticize drivers, turn right, then make a U-ie.
The red light cameras I’ve seen in Canada wwork like this: a pair of coils are buried in the road under each lane just before the intersection. A car going over the coils is detected by the magnetic effect of that large lump of metal; the time between the two coils translates into a speed.
If the speed exceeds the speed limit - picture, ticket.
If the speed is such that the car cannot possibly stop before it crosses into the intersection (about 6 feet from the final coil) and the light is red, cannot make it through before the light goes red - picture, ticket.
Surprisingly, the system issued a LOT more speed tickets than red light tickets, despit its name.
But essentially, if you are sitting in the intersection having entered on a green, this system cannot detect you and will not take a picture, even if the oncoming bozos delay you well past the red light. (Oddly enough, I remember looking at the tar pattern covering the coils cut into the road, and there were no coils on the left turn lanes typically)
So I can run all the red lights I want so long as I do it slowly? 
I assume all red light cameras are not the same, but all the friends and acquaintances who’ve received red light camera tickets got them for failing to come to a complete stop when making a right turn on red (or so they say). I wouldn’t think this speed survey-like system would catch those.
Bozos is allowed?
It would be nice if the oncoming drivers that force you to stay out until the red were ticketed.
Related to an upthread comment. When I’m sitting at an intersection waiting to make an unprotected turn (left on green ball or right on red), it is my decision when there is enough space/time for me to turn, not anyone behind me. I know the acceleration characteristics of my car and don’t care how loud the horns are behind me.
Staying behind the line to stay on a sensor has a lot of merit. I’m watching the oncoming traffic and if a break comes along, I’ll start rolling, cautiously anticipating hitting the gap.
Local laws, signage, etc. can cause exceptions but as a general rule, I don’t block the box even in the absence of a sign.
Contrary to the belief of those using a zeroth order world model, all cars have limited acceleration, and oncoming traffic limits when you can cross, starting from the farthest possible point forward does not result in reaching the goal the soonest.
I piss the OP off. Early in the green light, I will hang back, allowing me more space to accelerate and turn through a smaller gap in oncoming traffic. As the light goes stale (indicated by pedestrian signals, or yellow light) I will pull out as the OP expects so as to be able to make the turn after the light changes to red. My goal is to be in the intersection and still moving when the oncoming traffic stops.
While this seems to make some of the drivers behind me crazy, in no case does it slow them down, and often speeds them up as I am able to turn through a gap that I wouldn’t be able to from a mid-intersection stop.
Kevbo you make a good point.
Depending the physics and timing of it all, hanging back could actually be an advantage in several ways.
I am sorry, but I find it highly selfish to block everybody behind you by not moving into the intersection and allowing them to pass you. Maybe once in a while it may get you through an intersection a little quicker, but time after time, you delay no telling how many people. Also, it would require very good timing, accurately guess the speed of on coming cars.
Just pull into the intersection and let other people by, and make your turn when you can.
You miss the point.
He’s talking about a dedicated left turn lane with a yield on green (most likely). He’s NOT talking about a single lane where the people who are trying to turn left are blocking the people that are trying to go straight.
He can get through a gap he otherwise COULD NOT get through if he accelerated from the center of the intersection rather than time it right and accelerate from behind the line.
He’s likely doing everyone behind him a favor. They just can’t see that.
I see no indication in that post that it is a dedicated left turn lane. The main thrust of this thread has not been dedicated left turn lanes.
Sure it has.
The problem with Kevbo’s method is that it is illegal to move into the intersection once the light turns yellow.
If you are allready in the intersection, you can continue your turn.