New trick drivers in my town are doing... is there a reason for it?

[billfish678]

@enipla

Sure it has.

The problem with Kevbo’s method is that it is illegal to move into the intersection once the light turns yellow.

If you are allready in the intersection, you can continue your turn.

That part about the yellow light and illegal is probably true in most places. The part about being able to make a faster, easier turn starting from the line is at least possibly true depending on the variables.

So, if he hangs back on a green with yield and only enters when it looks like a gap is coming, even though the people behind him are getting pissed because they think he is holding things up, he may well not be doing so. That would be both legal AND better for everyone.

Even with his don’t go till the yellow, though it might be illegal, also doesnt hold people up if only one car is allowed in the intersection (to make a left) at a time. It does have the advantage of him not hanging out in the intersection to be hit by some yahoo from one of 4 different directions. And because he has already got up speed, he would get OUT of the intersection faster so he isnt pissing off the people that had a red and now have a green.

[Dahnlor]

@thelabdude

I see no indication in that post that it is a dedicated left turn lane. The main thrust of this thread has not been dedicated left turn lanes.

My presumption has been the opposite. Without a dedicated turning lane, there’s not really any difference whether the left-turner pulls past the limit line to wait for an opening to turn left, they’ll be blocking non-turning traffic the same either way.

One of my greatest annoyances is with drivers who don’t pull forward enough to allow a second car in the intersection when waiting for a left turn. However, I grudgingly tolerate it, since they’ll at least take their turn, and they’ll be out of the way the next time around.

But if you don’t even enter the intersection, there’s no compulsion to clear the intersection. As a matter of fact, the only time I can remember when the car in front of me didn’t move forward when the light turned green, they were too timid or distracted to even attempt to make a turn before the light turned red again.

[thelabdude]

@Dahnlor

My presumption has been the opposite. Without a dedicated turning lane, there’s not really any difference whether the left-turner pulls past the limit line to wait for an opening to turn left, they’ll be blocking non-turning traffic the same either way.

One of my greatest annoyances is with drivers who don’t pull forward enough to allow a second car in the intersection when waiting for a left turn. However, I grudgingly tolerate it, since they’ll at least take their turn, and they’ll be out of the way the next time around.

But if you don’t even enter the intersection, there’s no compulsion to clear the intersection. As a matter of fact, the only time I can remember when the car in front of me didn’t move forward when the light turned green, they were too timid or distracted to even attempt to make a turn before the light turned red again.

At the intersection of two 2 lane streets, if a left turner pulls into the center of the intersection and waits, it leaves plenty of room to go around on the right. It makes a big difference to the cars wanting to go straight through.

As for a left turn lane, the more I think about it, the worse the idea of setting behind the crosswalk and then when you think there will be a gap. zooming into the intersection and cutting through a narrow gap seems. To take advantage of a gap smaller than what you could get through otherwise would call for exquisite timing and judging the other car’s speeds. You would have a real chance of being the car that came out of nowhere. I would rather be out in the intersection where I can be seen and do as expected.

[Kevbo]

@thelabdude

To take advantage of a gap smaller than what you could get through otherwise would call for exquisite timing and judging the other car’s speeds. You would have a real chance of being the car that came out of nowhere. I would rather be out in the intersection where I can be seen and do as expected.

It takes a bit of practice, but you don’t have to get it very near perfect to get a big advantage over starting out from a dead stop in the middle. You can modulate your acceleration to correct for small errors in the timing of when you started out. The big problem isn’t judging cars speeds, it is guessing their intentions. You don’t need to accelerate hard, and you don’t want to because if you spook the oncoming drivers into braking, then it throws the timing all out of whack, and hard acceleration makes the timing far more critical.

If you normally accelerate at 1/4g, then rolling at 5-6 mph (just a fast walking speed) saves a full second. If the oncoming traffic is moving 30mph, then that is about 200 feet less gap needed, or 200 feet of extra clearance for the same gap. Or it can be a 100 foot smaller gap, with an extra 100 feet of clearance…you can get through a smaller gap and still be cutting it LESS close than the stoppers in the middle.

(numbers well rounded)

Perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 of the time either my judgment is off enough, or somebody changes lanes or turns without signalling, or signals and then does not enter the left turn lane, and I end up stopping in the middle, in which case I am no worse off than those who always stop in the middle…the rest of the time it is a win. It is one of the things in my driving I am always working to improve. What aspects of your driving do you work to improve?

I drive cars with manual transmissions, and grew up when even automatic transmission cars would sometimes stall when you punched the accelerator. (In Denver, most cars with carbs ran rich, and the one-shot accelerator pumps, if functional, often over fueled the engine) My technique means if the car stalls, it happens before you are blocking the oncoming traffic. I admit this is no advantage for drivers of modern fuel injected automatic transmission cars in good working order…except that you can accelerate at a much lower rate and save some fuel, which has gotten expensive of late.

Also, starting from farther back is a huge win when there is an uncontrolled intersection with a left turn lane. (to drift from the OP) You don’t have to risk missing the light, and you are not blocking the intersection for those that are needing to turn left from the cross streets. (especially those coming from your right) If you can get through a smaller hole, it saves those waiting behind you time. (not that they will ever realize it).

Yet out of habit many if not most drivers will still stop in the middle in this situation. Some of them will even stop when there is no oncoming traffic. (seems to be related to talking on a cell phone)

Oh yes, when there is NOT a dedicated turn lane, I will do my best not to block the traffic behind me, just to clear that up. Where I drive, there is almost always a dedicated left turn lane when there is a traffic signal…didn’t occur to me to think of other situations.

[Voyager]

@Bearflag70

Building on the previous California posts, in California traffic school, the instructor taught that it is illegal to enter the intersection until such time as you can fully clear the intersection. So, if you want to turn left and there is oncoming traffic that would cause you to stop in the intersection before turning left, you can’t legally cross the limit line into the intersection. People enter and wait all the time, but it does open you up to a possible gridlock ticket.

If you are making a left turn against oncoming traffic, it is impossible to know if the turn will be feasible before the light turns red due to that traffic. If, however, you are thinking of entering an intersection going straight or turning left, you immediately know if there is room for you to clear the intersection. Entering an intersection when there is not room can lead to gridlock, entering one when there is room will never do so. That the quoted law applies to going straight as well as turning left seems to indicate that it does not apply to the OP’s question - except for the case where the road to the left is full, in which case entering the intersection would be prohibited.

[Peremensoe]

@Kevbo

…all cars have limited acceleration, and oncoming traffic limits when you can cross, starting from the farthest possible point forward does not result in reaching the goal the soonest.

I piss the OP off. Early in the green light, I will hang back, allowing me more space to accelerate and turn through a smaller gap in oncoming traffic.
…
While this seems to make some of the drivers behind me crazy, in no case does it slow them down, and often speeds them up as I am able to turn through a gap that I wouldn’t be able to from a mid-intersection stop.

It’s not about making the fastest possible turn.

If acceleration space/time is a factor in your intersection maneuver, you’re doing it wrong. You should never jam the gas like this in or near an intersection, no matter which way you’re going. This is where many pedestrian and bicyclist killings come from.

[Kevbo]

@spark240

It’s not about making the fastest possible turn.

If acceleration space/time is a factor in your intersection maneuver, you’re doing it wrong. You should never jam the gas like this in or near an intersection, no matter which way you’re going. This is where many pedestrian and bicyclist killings come from.

Per my last post, doing it “my way” requires milder acceleration.

And I screwed up the math. it’s 50 feet instead of 200. I was using 60 mph =~100’/sec and multiplied when I should have divided. never mind

[thelabdude]

One ‘‘improvement’’ I won’t be making is jumping through intersections to make left turns.

[velomont]

A bit of a hijack and I apologize. “…since Edmonton has the Worst Drivers In The World…” I currently live in Halifax and I’m convinced that Halifax has the worst drivers in the world: don’t signal but if you must, only signal once you’ve started turning; if you choose a lane then choose the wrong one; if you have the right of way then it’s best to slow down as you go through an intersection; regardless of where you’re driving, slow down sporadically from time to time, even though you’re below the speed limit anyway. In a two year period I have actually witnessed two collisions as they occurred. One was a woman who blithely sailed out of a sidestreet into the path of an oncoming police car (with sirens and lights). The driver tried to blame the cop. The other was a motorist making a left turn at an intersection on a Sunday morning with only one other vehicle, oncoming, present. There were no visibility issues, no need for the left turning driver to rush, but rush he did and there was a collision.

[enipla]

Part of the problem with Kevbos method is that if you wait that far back and there is any kind of median, you simply can’t see as well as you can when you pull forward and get into the intersection and past the median.

Once past the median, you can move over an extra foot or two so that you can see past the other car that may be in front of you trying to make a left turn as well. It does of couse depend how wide the medan is.

[K364]

@velomont

A bit of a hijack and I apologize. “…since Edmonton has the Worst Drivers In The World…” I currently live in Halifax and I’m convinced that Halifax has the worst drivers in the world: don’t signal but if you must, only signal once you’ve started turning; if you choose a lane then choose the wrong one; if you have the right of way then it’s best to slow down as you go through an intersection; regardless of where you’re driving, slow down sporadically from time to time, even though you’re below the speed limit anyway. In a two year period I have actually witnessed two collisions as they occurred. One was a woman who blithely sailed out of a sidestreet into the path of an oncoming police car (with sirens and lights). The driver tried to blame the cop. The other was a motorist making a left turn at an intersection on a Sunday morning with only one other vehicle, oncoming, present. There were no visibility issues, no need for the left turning driver to rush, but rush he did and there was a collision.

(OP’er here)… heh, np Velomont. Maybe we need a “No, MY city has the worst drivers in the world” thread.

[I_Know_Nothing]

In Texas we call these unprotected left turns, as opposed to protected left turns when you have an arrow.

I specifically remember the driver’s ed lesson from 20 years ago. When making an unprotected left turn you pull out in the left turn lane and yield to oncoming traffic until you can complete the turn. If there is no room, you wait until the yellow/red light(when the oncoming traffic is stopped) and finish then. There is a few second delay after your light turns red and the next light turns green, so this does not result in blocking the next round of cars unless the oncoming traffic is running the red light by many seconds. I’m surprised to found out there is any other way of doing it, especially laws against it in California. To me that doesn’t make sense. Pulling out into the intersection is safer(much less distance to judge) and better for traffic flow.

In 20 years of driving I’ve never, that I recall, been delayed by anyone completing a left turn in this way.