This clearly isn’t true, though. This information can be (and almost certainly is) written down, both in English and Maori. And if it isn’t (which seems unlikely, what with New Zealand having been a pretty civilised place pretty much since the 1840s (the first census was in 1851, IIRC), then from what you’re saying it isn’t too late to start now.
As a New Zealander myself, I thought there were Maori titles of nobility - they just didn’t matter to non-Maori, in the sense that while you would (as a non-Maori) treat them respectfully, but you wouldn’t be calling them “Your Grace” or “Your Excellency” or “My Lord” or anything like that.
And perhaps I’m missing something, but who are these European New Zealander aristocrats of which you speak?
To the best of my knowledge, throughout the entire 20th century there’s only been about half a dozen, maybe a dozen or so New Zealanders to be made Duke or Earl or Baron of anywhere in New Zealand, and that short list includes people such as Ernest Rutherford (Lord Rutherford of Nelson, 1931), Bernard Freyberg (as Baron Freyberg of Wellington in 1951) and Robin Cooke (in 1996, as Baron Cooke of Thorndon) - and that didn’t entitle any of them to great tracts of lands or peasants or anything like that.
Most New Zealanders (regardless of ethnicity) aren’t titled. As a few people have said, there doesn’t appear to be anything stopping the Maori King from creating a Maori list of titles & honours. I appreciate you’d like some international recognition for such a thing, but considering a not inconsiderable percentage of the world’s population have no idea where New Zealand is or actually think it’s full of hobbits and elves… perhaps that might be a bridge best crossed when it is arrived at?
No. You have fallen in amongst your elders. My father served in WWII, all branches of my family had left Europe before World War One. My maternal great-grandfather never forgave Wilson for breaking up the Dual Moanrchy.
And as others have said, your grandmother had her title, recognized by all to whom it concerned, and to tie her princess-ness to the whim of some European monarch would diminish the importance of her title. She was a princess by blood, not by the decree of some Pakeha committee.
As an American, I don’t recognize any such thing. Or rather, I understand that some Europeans like to play-act that such and such a person, because of who’s womb they slid out of, gets a special nickname. It’s all stuff and nonsense as far as I’m concerned, and of as little importance to me as which Pharoah honored which general or priest back in 3000 BC. It was important to THEM, but not to me. I’m a free citizen of a free country, and I don’t cotton to aristocrats putting on airs. Now, I’m not gonna be rude to anyone. If I meet a nice old lady from the UK I’ll be polite as pie to her, it doesn’t matter what medieval superstitions the people in the UK believe about her. She’s entitled to the exact same respect any other human being is entitled to. Now I understand that this particular nice old lady has done a fine job over the years as a corporate mascot/spokesmodel for her country, and so she deserves the same accolades as anyone else does their job without whinging.
Recognized by who? There is no legal difference between the peerage of England and the riff-raff, other than those whose titles entitle them to seats in the House of Lords (none of which are hereditary today.)
Because, if Pakeha titles don’t need to be validated by beiing translated into Maori terms, why would Maori titles need to be validated by being expressed in Pakeha terms? To suggest that they do seems to me to denigrate the inherent validity of Maori titles.
Surely the appropriate demand is that the New Zealand authorities should acknowledge and use the Maori titles in the same way that they acknowledge and use the British titles?
The above statement is exactly what I am trying to point out, but cant seem to do it, yes Maori titles should be used in the same way that we acknowledge the use of the British or New Zealand titles
As an American, I don’t recognize any such thing. Or rather, I understand that some Europeans like to play-act that such and such a person, because of who’s womb they slid out of, gets a special nickname. It’s all stuff and nonsense as far as I’m concerned, and of as little importance to me as which Pharoah honored which general or priest back in 3000 BC. It was important to THEM, but not to me. I’m a free citizen of a free country, and I don’t cotton to aristocrats putting on airs. Now, I’m not gonna be rude to anyone. If I meet a nice old lady from the UK I’ll be polite as pie to her, it doesn’t matter what medieval superstitions the people in the UK believe about her. She’s entitled to the exact same respect any other human being is entitled to. Now I understand that this particular nice old lady has done a fine job over the years as a corporate mascot/spokesmodel for her country, and so she deserves the same accolades as anyone else does their job without whinging
LOL at the Above statement. American’s !! Your statement is flawed,take a look at your own back yard and see the miss that your so called FREE nation, do you honestly think your the only Free nation?? How about you start with free health care then come talking to me about being free!, you are slaves to the system, the Republic Aristocratic system, thats says your health comes with a price! boo !!!
There is only one Maori Title, and that is the Maori King, however he is not the Maori King of all, The King movement is only a movement, and only a few tribes recognise it. Other tribes have there own Ariki. That might be true about only a few titled men in New Zealand, but whats the point of giving titles to them, when they havent even titled the countries own nobility? which has been her for centuries? WHen i talk about european titles, I talk about all titles, even the tongan titles. QE2 and her titles are acknoweldge within Maori, yet Maori Ariki and Rangatira titles are not officially acknowledge within the Pakeha system. FOr example When you fill in an Application it often gives you an options to state your Title. These options range for MR, MRS, MISS, MS, DR,PRO,CAPTAIN, LORD,SIR,LADY etc but what you don’t see is is the option of Rangatira? or Ariki?
I have no idea what your talking about when you talk about getting great tracts of land? if you didnt notice, the maori don’t have any, in total it equates to 1% divided up by almost 500k people go figure. People seem to fear that Titles entitle you to privileges??? since when?? like a hundred years ago. Why would it matter if the alot of the world doesnt know where new zealand is??
The point is this. The Queen has been giving out titles to New Zealanders left right and centre since we were formed, but hasnt bothered to title her own nobility that have resided in her country centuries before 1840. So what is that saying about the Crown intentions? It was always about wiping us out, but it failed. Give us what is due, acknowledge the Rangatira of this country! acknowledge that our Aristocratic system is worthy of an official NZ Aristocratic title! just like how we acknowledge her Aristocratic title! An Aristocrat, thats not even native to the country.
i know my grammar is shocking, but i tend to type to fast to care and think about it, plus im on an iphone, predictive txt is so annoying So excuse it. I am sure you getting what I am saying.
I will make this clear, I myself do not seek a TITLE, I could never get one because I am not the son of the eldest son.Yes she was a Princess by right of her birth, but is not acknowledge as a Princess officially within New Zealand, which seems quite ridiculous considering she carried the lineage of a 1000 years. This is what I am trying to point out, that everything is in place to acknowledge other official titles and knight hoods etc, but there is nothing in place to acknowledge the titles that have been her for nearly a 1000 years.
I am one of her 300 grandchildren, and my father one of 17 children, however my family and I were the closet to her. I have set forward a petition to the Queen for a title, I received a response from the Govenor General. The govenors office basically stated that The current system does not acknowledge my grandmother and her lineage. I have spoken to the lawyers from the Nobility association, they are well aware of the issue and stated that it would this issue would open a can of worms. He basically said I am correct in having the right to make such a claim.
However the nobility association will acknowledge my grandmother, and her eldest. Titles however could not be conferred posthumously, unless granted by the sovereign
Did Hungary even have a choice?? The monarchy broke up after WW1 and a Colonel or something like that was the caretaker of the Throne untill they could figure something out. But Austria lost the war and at the time Im sure the Hungarians would have been dragged down with them. The break up of that monarchy was a consequence of the war and the millions of lives they took to protect there Crown.
You got to admit, this topic that I have addressed is a pretty interesting topic, I have never seen it come up in conversation anywhere before. It is quite un-canny that I talk about this topic and how strongly I feel that we have been unfairly treated. My ancestor officially opened NZ first parliament as Govenor General. Colonel Wynyard set up the system that I am against
She died in boxing day 2011, she was one of my best friends. She was awesome, funny , cheeky and certainly not stupid. We took her ashes up in a helicopter and placed her on top of Mount Taranaki. She wanted to look over her people and the other tribe in which she belonged to
So, closing in on the second anniversary of her death brought back the thought of her and your feelings toward her and you’d like to do something special for her memory?
Perhaps talking about how you feel in the Mundane Pointless Stuff I Must Share (MPSIMS) section would be better than the threads you have started. Don’t let the name of the section lead you to conclude that it’s not important, plenty of people talk about their feelings and grieving there. They usually find a sympathetic ear from other posters.
I most certainly miss her, however, I know where she is, and I have no regrets as my relationship with her was complete. Everything I needed to say was said while she was alive. I don’t carry grief, to be honest I have carried the grief of my ex longer than I have for my grandmother, because there no questions needing to be answered by her, so I am ok with her death.
It was in her death that prompted me to bring this topic up. She was by no means a snob or ever spoke about her noble birth, it wasn’t her, she understood her history, she lived among those who lived in NZ pre colonization.
I bring this subject up, because I believe it was not good enough that my grandmothers noble birth was not recognised officially by the Queen. The same Queen who determines that my grandmother is a New Zealand citizen. The same Queen who tells us who is noble within the land and who isnt, and according to the NZ Crown my grandmother was not noble because she bears no official title. This I find very frustrating! A Maori Princess, but not a Princess in her QE2 realm. to be considered an aristocrat you have to be titled
I suspect if you were to take a nationwide survey, the overwhelming majority of non-Maori (and remember, they make up 85% of the country’s population or thereabouts) would have no idea what a Rangatira or Ariki is, and I further suspect a substantial percentage of those non-Maori would suspect people claiming to be Rangatira or Ariki were making it up for whatever reason.
You know Europeans (and Asians and all the other non-Maori who make up the other 4 million New Zealanders) in New Zealand don’t collectively have any land either, right? Any land not owned in freehold (like by people owning their own homes and farms etc) is owned by The Crown, which represents all New Zealanders, not just Whitey. There aren’t special parcels of land set aside For European New Zealanders Only or anything.
Sincle always. That’s sort of the point of having a title, that you get privileges ranging from “More respect” to “vast tracts of land and peasants to toil it for you” (depending on the era of history you’re talking about). What’s the point of having a title if it doesn’t mean anything?
Because your proposed Maori Titles will never have any international understanding (hence legitimacy) if no-one knows where the country is. “I’m a Maori Prince from New Zealand” sounds like something that belongs in an email asking for someone’s help to move a few million dollars out of the country on the QT, and asking for help in the form of an overseas bank account in which to “rest” the money until the heat dies down - all in exchange for a percentage of the cash, of course. (You are familiar with the Nigerian Scam, right?)
I’m not unsympathetic to recognition of legitimate Maori titles, but it’s something that’s going to require decades of work to implement and require a massive (and astronomically unlikely) cultural change in New Zealand to bring about.
If you want to talk about the government intentionally trying to wipe out the native inhabitants, the Tasmanian Aborigines are in reception waiting for you. To the best of my knowledge, the British Crown and/or the New Zealand Government never purused a policy of even trying to wipe out the Maori. The whole “Noble Savage” idea was in vogue from about the point New Zealand was colonised and the British had a very real respect for the Maori and their culture which was not evident in Australia for a variety of reasons outside the scope of this thread.
Another point I think you’ve missed is that the honours and titles the Crown bestowed/bestows upon New Zealanders are available to all New Zealanders, regardless of race, and are based on deeds and merit. Maori have been given knighthoods - would European (or Asian) New Zealanders be entitled to the the Maori Aristocratic Titles you’re proposing? Since the answer is “No”, there’s going to be a huge amount of (very reasonable) resistance to the idea.
What if we wanted a Maori Queen or King reigning over New Zealand?? The fact that the hereditary titled noble who reigns over us now is Pakeha, indicates that forever how long New Zealand stays a monarchy, our governance will always be race based.
There are some valid points there, however the fact is, we are untitled. I’m stating that a hereditary title be granted to these families, if an Asian or pakeha is granted a hereditary title by the Crown then he or she has the right to bear it, it would not br solely based on ur race, even though the Queens is. Because these would be new zealand styled titles.However how can a Maori hereditary title be granted to an asian if he isnt maori or noble? secondly the title I am talking about is Titles given to her subjects,that are from her Noble class in the country she reigns, remember she is styled as HM Queen Elizabeth the Second of New Zealand. So therefore she has authority to create a Noble titles within her own realm, a noble class that already exist but are UNTITLED.
Maybe I got carried away with wiping us out bit,but it was said by politicians in the day. What I am merely proposing is a legitimate hereditary title granted by the Queen, which is recognised by her and the realm in which she reigns, at the moment no such thing exist.
There are no tangible privileges to be had from being titled. The only advantage is, we are officially recognised within the pakeha system as they are within ours. Validating the title in a system that every single Maori has to live in today.
Also, the titles are not the say of the remaining 85%. noble titles are granted by the Queen and the Queen alone, nobles are only a group of people closet to the queens ranking. There is no political advantages because the queen can have no political say at all.
There can be no problem here, for some reason people feel inferior if we have titled nobility,but the fact is,we already do have titled nobility and it hasn’t changed the mindset of a kiwi.
New Zealand is a well known country, 4 million people can’t go un noticed, so to say that we are not very important people is a load of crack, Helen Clark runs United Nations, 3rd rank or something, and we have done a lot for the world community.
I very much doubt it would take decades to make this change, the titles have no political advantage or disadvantage. Just like a Knight or dame has.
What I am purposing is …
Hereditary Titles granted within New Zealand for all New Zealanders, starting with its original Nobles first, the Maori Aristocrats.
Hereditary titles can be created for Pakeha/ Asian etc bearing the Maori and Pakeha name for Aristocrat.
No peerage system of governance would ever exist, this is New Zealand and we can create our own style of Kingdom.
What also concerns me is, the 85% of non Maori who don’t know what a Rangatira or Ariki is, is a clear indicator, why dont they not know? But they will know the names of British nobles and governors of nz?? And the majority of Maori would know them as well.
Shouldn’t pakeha know that there was governance before the Queen? Shouldn’t they know that we had leaders and warriors to? They should know we had leaders, royals and nobles because that way of life was apart of this nation to. It was the formation of the Maori land court that undermined the Rangatira and Ariki status, the Crown set all these laws in place to undermine our authority and the system we already had in place.
So it’s time to restore that missing knowledge that half our nation hasn’t a clue about. It’s time to give back that mana that was taken away from us. I think it’s time the Queen acknowledges her people, and the Nobles who lived here a 1000 years before her reign
Hear, hear! It’s time to storm the government buildings and claim your birthright! I would join you on your crusade, but I do have a meeting this afternoon that I really shouldn’t miss. Let us know how this turns out fo ryou.