NEWS FLASH: Obama not Muslim!

[BrainGlutton]

@Bryan_Ekers

Well, yeah… and that they might take the sky fairy’s advice seriously. We can’t really know what Reagan and Bush43 were thinking, of course (and whether or not they were simply trying to mollify the fundamentalist part of their political base), but didn’t they say on several occasions that their decisions were guided by religion? I don’t know how often Reagan took this road, but Bush43 seemed happy with it.

Actually, I think Reagan’s spiritual counselor was his wife’s astrologer, which is as good a choice as any.

[Tom_Scud]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

@Chessic_Sense

The equivalent is having one side of his family that’s Muslim, even though you guys want to hand wave that away, and having spent formative years in an Islamic culture.

And I seriously doubt my view is unusual. I said he’s an atheist. A lot of people, in this thread even, agree with me. He’s putting on a show. He’s one of those guys that doesn’t spend much time thinking about the divine. When he says he meets with spiritual advisors, he’s lying. He’s playing politics. The guy’s idea of Sunday worship is cheering on the Bears.

I never said he was a Muslim.

Okay, so you’re not saying he’s a Muslim. You’re saying… he might be a Muslim. Okay; he might also be a Zoroastrian. So what?

He’s just being wary, is all.

[El_Kabong]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Listen carefully. His father was an ATHEIST. His MOTHER was an atheist. His STEPFATHER was an atheist. He did not “grow up in” or “spend his formative years in” a Muslim country. He lived in Indonesia between the ages of 6-10 years old. His father left him when he was two and he never had any contact with his father’s Muslim relatives growing up. While he lived in Indonesia he did not live with Muslims and did not practice Islam. He went to Christian and public schools while he was there. He did not have any “Muslim side” of his family. The only side of the family he ever had was his mother’s side, which raised him, raised him in the United States and raised him without any Islamic religious component whatsoever.

Oh yeah? What about all the transfusions of Musliglobin at that hospital in Kenya where he was born? What do you have to say about THAT, smart guy?

[Chessic_Sense]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Okay, so you’re not saying he’s a Muslim. You’re saying… he might be a Muslim. Okay; he might also be a Zoroastrian. So what?

So:

It’s obvious where the 43% of "unsure"s comes from. I’m one of them.
Dio: I never said he “might be” a muslim either. I said I wouldn’t be surprised if he said he was. But he hasn’t said that. So the secret-Muslim thing is off the table.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

Chassic Sense:

You sound like you’re not really sure of much.

Tell us more things that you would not be surprised if Obama said he was:

• Kenyan
• Socialist
• Communist
• Marxist
• Mormon
• Buddhist
• Antichrist
• Lizard Person
• Emperor of the Universe
• An enormous hedgehog named “Spiney Norman”

[Tom_Scud]

In truth, he can’t be sure that his entire life hasn’t been a phantasm created by an evil demon.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Chessic_Sense

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Okay, so you’re not saying he’s a Muslim. You’re saying… he might be a Muslim. Okay; he might also be a Zoroastrian. So what?

So:

It’s obvious where the 43% of "unsure"s comes from. I’m one of them.
Dio: I never said he “might be” a muslim either. I said I wouldn’t be surprised if he said he was. But he hasn’t said that. So the secret-Muslim thing is off the table.

I grew up in Christian-majority countries, for the most part, but also spent two of my “formative” years living in Bahrain, and significant parts of six of said years in Oman.

Would you be surprised if I was a Muslim?

[Kolga]

@Kobal2

Seriously, what can the guy do to please you folk ?

1. Go back in time and not win the election.
2. Admit that he was born in Kenya and/or is a Muslim, so that they can a) remove him from office or 2)…[I don’t know, point and say “I told you so!”?]
3. Go away. Somehow.

[Gangster_Octopus]

Only a secret Muslim would deny he’s a Muslim.

[Hypnagogic_Jerk]

@born_too_late

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

You donate money to a church whose tenets you no longer believe in? That’s… bizarre.

Not bizarre. It just means he’s hedging his bets in case he decides he wants to run for office sometime in the future.

My mother also gives money every year to her Catholic church, even though she never attends mass and I’m not quite sure what, if anything, her religious beliefs are. (She probably does believe in (a) God, but probably disagrees with most Catholic tenets.) And she’s not planning on running for office anytime in the future, not that she would need to present a Christian face here as Bryan Ekers points out.

Why does she do this? Probably just because she’s always done it; this church is part of her culture even though she’s not really part of the community today. To many people, their religious affiliation is part of their cultural background even if they no longer believe in or practice what their religious leaders say.

@JRDelirious

Many people operate under a couple of misplaced assumptions, first and worst being that your religious formation is some sort of ethnic trait. That by analogy to how people are labled as “a Jew” by descent without believing or practicing Judaism themselves, you can be a Muslim or a Mormon or whatever just by bloodline (and as a corollary, that if you’re really integrated into American Christian culture, then your name had better be changed to Bernie Herbert Oberton or something like that).

This just shows that religious affiliation is a cultural identifier that transcends what someone’s beliefs actually are. It really is an ethnic trait. In another thread I’ve seen mention of “atheist Catholics” and “atheist Protestants” in Northern Ireland. In the case of Jews it’s especially marked because Jewish communties have a whole set of cultural practices that differ from their non-Jewish neighbours’ without necessarily being religious in nature. They actually are a distinct ethnic group (actually more than one).

But Barack Obama doesn’t really come from a Muslim background. His father was a Muslim many years before, but that’s because Obama’s grandfather had converted from Christianity to Islam. On his mother’s side Obama’s family is just typical white American. So it’s not if he was, for example, an Arab-American who just doesn’t practice or believe in Islam anymore, who may not be a Muslim as such but can still be called a “cultural Muslim”. Obama did spend time in Indonesia, a Muslim-majority country, but there he was probably seen as “the American” so it’s questionable what influence if any this country had on him.

@Gyrate

Personally I’ve always suspected that Obama was a lot more religious than he was letting on, but was not an impose-the-will-of-God-on-the-populace kind of guy so it didn’t matter. I’ve got no problem with him being a man of faith as long as he wasn’t making laws that required everyone else to follow religious-based rules.

I believe Obama is quite religious, if only because he started practicing Christianity as an adult, at a time when he wasn’t yet thinking of running for office. People who convert or who choose their own religion as adults are usually more devout than people who just follow the religious tradition they were exposed to in their childhood. I’d definitely be surprised if Obama came out saying he’s an atheist. But he also clearly isn’t a fundamentalist, and doesn’t seem to think of his religious tradition as the only true way.

@Gyrate

I do sometimes wonder when all these people who claim he is a secret Muslim (or secret anything) think he’s going to cast off his disguise and reveal his master plan. He’s in the White House - what is he waiting for?

He wants to see if he can get a second term before doing this.

[Darth_Nader]

@Chessic_Sense

[I never said he “might be” a muslim either. I said I wouldn’t be surprised if he said he was.

Why? Fuckin’ why do you you want him to be a thing he is not?

[begbert2]

@Chessic_Sense

Dio: I never said he “might be” a muslim either. I said I wouldn’t be surprised if he said he was. But he hasn’t said that. So the secret-Muslim thing is off the table.

It is impossible for you to be unsurprised if he said he was a muslim if you did not already think it might be true. Therefore the secret-Muslim thing is centered precisely in the middle of your table.

Personally, I’d be surprised if he said he was an atheist. He goes to too much effort; if he was just faking there’d be no need to go to such lengths. And the only reason people think he might be faking is because we’ve all gotten so used to Christan politicians allowing their faith to corrupt their logical thinking that seeing one be able to separate his personal life and his work and make decisions based on the cold facts alone is surprising.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@BrainGlutton

@Bryan_Ekers

Well, yeah… and that they might take the sky fairy’s advice seriously. We can’t really know what Reagan and Bush43 were thinking, of course (and whether or not they were simply trying to mollify the fundamentalist part of their political base), but didn’t they say on several occasions that their decisions were guided by religion? I don’t know how often Reagan took this road, but Bush43 seemed happy with it.

Actually, I think Reagan’s spiritual counselor was his wife’s astrologer, which is as good a choice as any.

I’d thought of that when forming my earlier response, but I was having a hard enough time getting Starving Artist’s eyeballs to focus on what was actually a pretty simple point:

President who is religious: not scary.
President who says religion is guiding his policy decisions: scary.

[Darth_Nader]

Argh!

[Kobal2]

@Kolga

@Kobal2

Seriously, what can the guy do to please you folk ?

1. Go back in time and not win the election.

I’m 60% sure he would be bashed for showing off, then.

[John_Mace]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Listen carefully. His father was an ATHEIST. His MOTHER was an atheist. His STEPFATHER was an atheist. He did not “grow up in” or “spend his formative years in” a Muslim country. He lived in Indonesia between the ages of 6-10 years old. His father left him when he was two and he never had any contact with his father’s Muslim relatives growing up. While he lived in Indonesia he did not live with Muslims and did not practice Islam. He went to Christian and public schools while he was there. He did not have any “Muslim side” of his family. The only side of the family he ever had was his mother’s side, which raised him, raised him in the United States and raised him without any Islamic religious component whatsoever.

Well, as usual I think you’re going overboard with your denial, and although I certainly don’t agree wtih CS, you are mischaracterizing what he said, at least about having spent (part of) his formative years in a Muslim Country. Are you denying that 4 years (ages 6 -10) could be called “part of” one’s formative years or are you denying that Indonesia is a Muslim country?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

CS also said in an earlier post that Obama “grew up in” a Muslim country. He then dialed that back, but even the phrase “part of his formative years” is specious and effectively meaningless since a single day could be called “part of” someone’s formative years.

I do not believe those years are particularly formative anyway. I think that adolescence and teenage years are far more formative. I lived in England from the ages of 8-11, and I don’t feel like those years had much formative effect on me at all. My last two years of high school spent in West Africa were far more significant to me.

[Gyrate]

“Formative years” is vague but this is a battle you shouldn’t have fought. Age 6-10 is as “formative” as any, and Indonesia is definitely a Muslim country. Say your mea culpa and move on to more salient points.

[Boyo_Jim]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

… I lived in England from the ages of 8-11, and I don’t feel like those years had much formative effect on me at all. My last two years of high school spent in West Africa were far more significant to me.

OMG, you’re a secret Anglican.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Absolutely not. I completely reject that 6-10 is particularly formative, and the characterization of that particular time in Obama’s life as formative is complete bullshit.