You’re right, thats the very least.
And a bathtub?
Shocking. Positively shocking.
Bolding mine. Do you really believe the stuff you type? The bolded part is just like saying, “elections do not represent the will of the people, except for those few who are in a booth on election day”.
So you’re saying that Obama should have dropped out before the primaries started because he was way behind in the votes of some party insiders.
And you’re the one who’s been flogging the importance of the popular vote - or at least, the more Clinton-favorable permutations of it.
Anyway, I personally don’t care what you do or don’t give a rat’s ass about, because it seems that you only give a rat’s ass about whatever slender theory makes Clinton look like she’s still in the game. And even then, the logical contortions you make usually result in your arguing with yourself, as you seem to be doing here.
“Those few in the room at [the] time.”
Care to back that “few” part up with cites? Because everything I’ve seen suggested that the biggest problem with the caucuses, this primary season, was finding rooms big enough to contain “those few in the room.”
Guess they must’ve had some exceedingly overweight caucus-goers. :rolleyes:
Well, yeah. And Obama’s currently up by 155.
Anyone else noticing the frothing Hillary Supporters who are usually here doing their little dance are decidedly absent?
They’ll be back. It was like us after Ohio/Texas when we took a little breakie. They’re taking a little breakie now.
Personally, I think we’re just in a bit of a lull before Hillary ratchets up the vitriol against Obama again. Yes, she’s probably laden with the flop sweat of desperation but, like a cornered animal, this may only make her more dangerous and unpredictable.
I also notice she’s still pressing for Florida and, against all logic, Michigan, and still had her drawl on yesterday in West Virginia. I actually will be surprised if she drops out before the convention.
Not me, I will be surprised if she takes this to Denver. The supers will all jump in less than a month. June 4th. She’ll win West Virginia and Kentucky, but the rest will heavily go Obama - the primary season is pretty well closed up. Barring a illigitimate alien baby for Obama or evil twin…
Someone up thread (or in a related thread) noted how McCain only got 70-something percent of the vote in one of these primaries. Imagine if Hillary dropped out before the next primaries-- there’s a good chance she’d still win in KT and WV, but you can bet that Obama wouldn’t take 70% of the vote.
Michigan may get seated after all, in a compromise that gives “Hillary Rodham Clinton 69 delegates and Barack Obama 59” and allows the supers. Obama may just consent to have Florida seated or in a compromise that gives them half votes. He not only can afford to be generous now he needs to be. As I have been telling Elvis all along, these delegates will be seated once they no longer matter and we are there. They do not catch her up in delegates nor do they change the narrative to the supers. Finding a way to seat them is part of the process of healing the party which is something that needs to be done as soon as is possible. They also allow Hillary a gracious exit in having fought for them.
I doubt those who have been clammoring for the seating of Florida and Michigan will see this as generous or gracious on the part of Obama. If some kind of mechanism is put into place that seats those delegations, but doesn’t give Hillary the lead, her supporters will still cry foul, because it was never about disenfranchising voters. It was always about giving Hillary the lead.
Maybe a new kitchen sink? I hear she tossed the one that she had.
But the Michigan primary, with only Clinton’s name on the ballot, does represent the “will of the people.”
I get it now. 
But in the same vein- this is not about appeasing Hillary supporters, it is about conceding the only legitimate point those supporters have WRT Michigan and Florida- that the voters may bear some resentment for delegates not being seated. To the extent that this bears any weight, then seating the delegates in a compromise goes toward healing that wound. I don’t buy it, but it is at least arguable.
Cacucses represent the will of all the people who care enough to come out to the caucus, just as elections represent the will of all the people who care enough to come out to the election. Neither is anywhere near 100%.
Besides, not being all that ahead is also known as being ahead.
The Democratic primary system is a hot mess. I really hope the leadership takes some steps to unfuck it a bit before the 2012 race, or at least before it’s time to pick a Dem successor to President Obama in 2016. For now, though, it is what it is, as much as Hillary might want it to be something else.
With respect, I doubt seriously that the average voter in either Florida or Michigan could give a damn whether or not their delegates are seated, absent efforts by media to quiz them on it or politicians to stir them up about it. I know some Michigan Democrats, so I know whereof I speak, here. 
BINGO! I’m a Michigan Democrat, and I could not give a flying fig whether my delegation gets seated or not. Just how many people care if their state is represented at the convention? Who, besides us junkies, even watch them?
While I’d like to think I felt my hair ruffle a bit from DrDeth’s post, I still must say that, in personal experience at least, the caucuses are wonderful. Though I must admit up front that I am quite proud of my precinct and WA’s, officially, bluest and most diverse legislative district- the Fightin’ 37th!
Maybe I’m just lucky to be in a good district, but at least with our caucuses, not only can you actually see the system work right in front of you, openly I might add, but they also instill the very real sense of community and involvement that has been missing in this Country for far too long.
The caucus goers are not just random people either, they are quite literally our neighbors, your’s and mine. They are also the ones who are going to be, at the very least, respectfully informed. ‘Great Debates’ actually do happen at the caucuses, and even if you disagree with someone’s pick at least you get to relate with your fellow voters, which just makes the greater American story even that much more real.
I will grant that do to space limitations and travel arrangements, at this time the caucus system is impractical for general election use. Obviously no system is perfect, but it can be improved rather than discarded. Arrange voting bus trips set up caucuses in more places mindful of the people around there in the community. But if you can go to the store or the park on the weekend there is no excuse for not being able to go to the caucuses other than sheer apathy.
Besides, this country wasn’t founded on and made great with impersonal boxes or booths; rather, it was formed by people and communities actually coming together, thinking, talking and working for something better.
I’m really sick and tired of this false meme that Obama is only ahead because of caucus states that “don’t represent the will of the people”, and that Hillary is ahead in primary states. It’s a flat out falsehood.
** State Type Obama Clinton**
Virgin Islands Other 1,772 149
Iowa Caucus 940 737[sup]*[/sup]
Nevada Caucus 4,805 5,407[sup]o[/sup]
Alaska Caucus 6,674 2,194
American Samoa Caucus 121 163
Colorado Caucus 80,113 38,839
Idaho Caucus 16,880 3,655
Maine Caucus 2,079 1,397[sup]†[/sup]
Wyoming Caucus 5,378 3,312
Minnesota Caucus 142,109 68,994
New Mexico Caucus 67,531 68,654
North Dakota Caucus 11,625 6,948
Nebraska Caucus 26,126 12,445
Washington Caucus 259,369 243,338
Kansas Caucus 27,172 9,462
Hawaii Caucus 28,347 8,835
**681,041** **474,529**
New Hampshire Primary 104,815 112,404
South Carolina Primary 295,091 141,128
Alabama Primary 300,319 223,089
Arizona Primary 193,126 229,501
Arkansas Primary 78,898 206,983
California Primary 2,186,662 2,608,184
Connecticut Primary 179,742 165,426
Delaware Primary 1,148 40,760
Georgia Primary 704,247 330,026
Illinois Primary 1,318,234 667,930
Utah Primary 74,538 51,333
Mississippi Primary 265,502 159,221
Pennsylvania Primary 1,046,220 1,260,444
Indiana Primary 630,399 644,594
North Carolina Primary 875,683 652,824
Massachusetts Primary 511,680 705,185
Missouri Primary 406,917 395,185
New Jersey Primary 501,372 613,500
New York Primary 751,019 1,068,496
Oklahoma Primary 130,130 228,480
Tennessee Primary 252,874 336,245
Maryland Primary 532,665 314,211
Virginia Primary 627,820 349,766
Wisconsin Primary 646,851 453,954
Rhode Island Primary 75,316 108,949
Texas Primary 1,358,785 1,459,814
Vermont Primary 91,901 59,806
Louisiana Primary 220,632 136,925
D.C. Primary 93,386 29,470
Ohio Primary 979,025 1,207,806
**15,484,997** **14,961,639**
[sup]*[/sup]The vote totals for the Iowa Democratic Party are State Delegate Equivalents, which represent the estimated number of state convention delegates that the candidates would have, based on the caucus results.
[sup]o[/sup]The vote totals for the Nevada Democratic Party reflect the number of county delegates won by the candidates.
[sup]†[/sup]Vote totals are the presidential preferences of the approximately 3,500 delegates elected to the state convention
Sources:
http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/primaries/democraticprimaries/index.html
http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/d_delegateScorecard.shtml
(The NY Times site, where I started gathering data, hasn't posted numbers from Pennsylvania to current, so those numbers were taken from the CBS site.
Neither site has numbers posted for Guam or Dems Abroad, so they are excluded from totals here.)
As you can see, he’s beating her in Primary states, too! So even if you didn’t count the Caucus states, he’s still ahead by 523,358 votes!
And guess what – even if you include Florida as is, where Hillary’s popular vote lead is 288,167, Barack Obama is still ahead by 235,191 votes in the Primary states alone!
And even if you want to stretch credulity and inlcude Michigan, giving Obama the 236,726 votes that went to “uncommitted”, vs Clinton’s 328,151, that still only depletes his lead in Primary states to 143,766.
This is just getting stupid.