All that applies to Eli Manning just as much (if not more) than Vick.
Montana has mediocre stats?
Mcnabb’s a yes though it is close. I’ll throw Mcnair in as well, who is likely to still be on the ballot at that point.
Warner, Big Ben are no’s though Ben could still prove worthy. They are good players in great environments rather than great players.
He’s only been playing since 2004. And it’s not like he carried them to that first SB, they were defense first teams. There’s no way he gets in right now.
So? What’s your point? Was someone somewhere saying that Eli loses a lot?
I don’t understand why there could be any doubt about Tomlinson. He’s not only the best running back of the last 15 years, he’s arguably the best in every facet of the game. Straight-up rushing? 7 straight 1,200+ yard seasons (including six straight 1,400+ yard seasons). Short yardage and scoring? He’s fourth on the all-time list (including Jerry Rice) and needs 7 more touchdowns to pass Marcus Allen for third… oh, and he holds the all-time season scoring/touchdown record. Receiving? Only running back in history with a 100-catch season, he’s caught 50+ passes in eight straight seasons, and he’s caught more than 500 passes in his career. Ball security? He’s lost 12 fumbles on over 3300 career touches. Durability? He missed one start in his first 8 seasons; even Curtis Martin wasn’t that tough. Oh, and he’s got a 154.4 career passer rating and 7 touchdown passes on 11 attempts.
Brian Urlacher? Too much flash, not enough sizzle. He’s the most overrated player in the league, and he’s not even the second-best middle linebacker of his era. Of course, he probably will get in.
Much as I’d like for Owens to be shut out, the man has 145 total touchdowns. Considering that at wide receiver there’s Jerry Rice and everyone else, that might as well be considered an NFL record at the position.
Warner’s had great stats, but he’s also had four of the best receivers of the last 20 years to throw the ball to. I think his New York hole shows what kind of quarterback he is without elite talent around him.
I’m not saying he’s a sort of NFL Ken Dorsey, just that he can’t put a team on his back.
McNabb, on the other hand, has put his team on his back for his entire career. He won’t get in without a ring or an MVP award, but he ought to.
Taylor was a defensive player of the year and had more sacks than anyone else from 2000-2009 (barring some unlikely occurrences in the remainder of this season). He’s in.
Sharper won’t be in. He’s a terrific player, but All-Pro free safeties seem to be everywhere nowadays. Polamalu, Ed Reed, Dawkins, Bob Sanders… Now, if Sharper plays three or four more years (unlikely) and keeps up this level of play (really unlikely) then all bets are off.
Freeney is too one-dimensional to make the HoF. If his numbers were truly eye-popping, then yeah, he’d be in, but they really aren’t; in 8 seasons he has 80 sacks. He does have a DPOTY under his belt, which helps.
Gates is not worthy right now. That said, he’s averaged 10.2 touchdowns over the last five seasons (ie., his career, not including his rookie year or this one) and if he keeps that up, it’ll be awful hard to keep him out. On the other hand, Shannon Sharpe set every record that Gates and Gonzo are currently rewriting, and the voters didn’t put him in last year (which is a fucking travesty on the level of keeping Black Sabbath out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame).
The rings thing is silly. Are you going to vote Kevin Faulk into the Hall? He’s got three rings. In fact, so has just about every longtime Patriot.
For my money, a player has to be in the discussion for the best player in the league at his position in order to be a Hall of Famer. That’s why LaDanian Tomlinson is a lock and Corey Dillon isn’t, even though Dillon’s got a ring.
Here’s an interesting candidate: the about to be retired Jamal Lewis. One monstrous season, and three very good ones - plus, he was the sum total of the Ravens offense in the Super Bowl year.
I was trying to discredit your points in favor of Vick by noting another player who both meets all those same points and who is clearly not a hall of famer.
I thought he was kidding about Vick. He wouldn’t get into the Hall of Fame even if he had a 4,000 yard passing season and hadn’t gone to prison.
Vick played 7 seasons. He played 8, 5, and 9 games in three of them. He played 4 full seasons and 3 partials. He does not qualify.
Lewis is in there with Rickey Watters, Tiki Barber, Ottis Anderson, Shaun Alexander, and others who were good backs, maybe even great for a little bit, but not a great enough career for the HOF. And he’s not got the “Gale Sayers” factor going for him either. Although Earl Campbell is in the hall, so there is hope.
I think Tiki Barber is head and shoulders above everyone else in that group, and even he would be a real stretch to make it. Tiki rushed for >10k, caught for >5k, and averaged 4.7 yards per carry.
Jamal Lewis rushed for the same basic yardage and touchdowns, caught less than half Tiki’s receiving yardage, and averaged a full half yard less per carry.
Shaun Alexander really fell of a cliff. He scored double the touchdowns of Tiki, but a thousand fewer rushing yards, less than a third of Tiki’s receiving yards and averaged .4 less per carry. Touchdowns alone don’t make up the difference, especially when you factor in the lingering gimp image Tiki doesn’t have due to early retirement.
Ricky Watters is real close. He basically got Tiki’s same totals (minus 1000 receiving yards) but needed 400 more carries (a pedestrian 4.1 YPC) over a few more years to do it. He did score half again as many TDs as Tiki, though.
Ottis Anderson is a poor man’s Ricky Watters. Same everything except only 4.0 per carry and a thousand fewer receiving yards.
Earl Campbell is worse than everyone listed, who all at least have 10k rushing yards. Earl has exactly 10,213 yards from scrimmage compared to >15k for Tiki, and a decent but not great 4.3 yards per carry.
I second this.
And this. Nobody likes him and his personal flaws are extremely well documented, but even if he’s dropped a lot of passes the last few years, he’s done too much to be left out.
I can get behind this reasoning. Warner had some injuries in New York but he also had extreme fumble-itis, partly because he was holding on to the ball. If you put him in an offense with enough big play talent, he’ll make the plays for sure. McNabb doesn’t look as impressive but he’s worked with much, much less, and he’s never gotten enough credit for it in my opinion.
Have either of you read the thread? In no way shape or form am I hyping Vick or giving anything resembling an argument for him. All I did was discredit gonzomax’s false statement about him losing a lot. For all the reasons to hate on Vick, the one and only thing he did do was win games.
This gets too much play. Urlacher probably gets a little too much attention due to being the great white hope, but he’s a HoFer for sure. All the people who argue against him seem to misunderstand his purpose in the defense. Is he a Butkus, Singletary, Nitschke, Lambert type who blows guys up in the hole and unloads on guys across the middle? No. He gets compared to Ray Lewis who is great but plays a completely different style and scheme than Urlacher. Lewis essentially never is asked to go backwards and he blitzes and plays downhill, side-to-side and is asked to punish people. Urlacher is almost pure pursuit and coverage in the Bears scheme. He’s got arguably the best range of any LB who has ever played and is maybe one of the best coverage LB that’s ever suited up.
That must be why Ray Lewis has more interceptions and passes defended than Urlacher since Urlacher got in the league.
I don’t know about McNabb. I’m actually a pretty big defender of his, but he’s never felt like a HOF’er to me. Should a guy who’s consistently, say, the 4th-10th best QB in the league be in? Of course, he has played an awful lot of shitty receivers, so that may be coloring my judgement of him.
Anyway, I don’t think he can get in without a ring. Even a very solid decline phase would only put him in Drew Bledsoe territory as far as counting stats go. He has been more efficient, though. Who knows?
I think if Antonio Gates can’t play another down after this season, he gets the Gale Sayers treatment. Just my impression.
I think if Brees manages to win the Superbowl this year, and retired I think people would consider him for a chance at the HOF. Though then again, alot has to do with his team itself. But if the Saints run the table and he retires, I think he’d have a shot at the HOF.
Course that probably could be said for anyone who runs the table the entire season and chooses to retire probably. Just surprised to see he wasn’t one of the eliminated people from the very start.
Ray Lewis is great, first ballot HoFer. Urlacher’s numbers are very similar to Lewis’, I’d say that speaks highly of him. Ironically, Urlacher has way more sacks than Lewis and a few more tackles if you toss out 2009.
Er… what? Lewis has 1,003 career tackles over the last nine years, and Urlacher has 934… but that’s because the NFL tackling statistics only go back to 2001. Lewis has 5 years’ worth of tackles that aren’t on his stat sheet.
If Urlacher can play for another five years at a Ray Lewis level, then he’s a Hall of Famer. Do you really believe he will? He had no sacks, under a hundred tackles and only two picks last year. The decline has already begun.
That would be Mr. Derrick Brooks, although I certainly think you could make an argument that Urlacher is a better all-around player than Brooks.
As things stand, Brees has no shot. Kurt Warner is more deserving than Brees - he’s got better career statistics and he’s got a ring. Keep in mind that Brees has had 3 3/4 teriffic years for the Saints - but he only had one very good year with the Chargers. Not saying he can’t get in, just that he can’t get in if he retires at the end of this season - even if he wins the Super Bowl.
I think McNabb will get in, the only people who don’t love him are Philly fans.
I think if Brees held an all-time record, that would make the case.
Read Hamlet’s statement. My reply was in that context. And I specifically said “if you toss out 2009”. Pay attention to details.
Well, the 2009 thing is fair, but my point is that Urlacher isn’t good enough to get in on his current accomplishments, so the “since he entered the league” bit is irrelevant.