To play devil’s advocate, his dad could just say he wouldn’t sit/kneel for those anthems then claim to still honor those countries.
Your father is right that the NFL has often fined players before for expressing things through their uniforms, but overlooks that’s one key difference between this and kneeling - the CBA gives them clear authority to control the uniforms and fine players for deviating from them, but not so for kneeling during the anthem. If there had been such a rule, I bet the NFL would’ve tried to use it to stop the players. The owners have made it clear they want the kneeling to stop, and the owners basically are the NFL, in this situation.
His “respect vs. disrespect” argument also doesn’t hold up since the NFL has also started allowing players to wear personalized messages this season (“My Cause My Cleats”).
Perhaps, but I think you can also say there’s a difference between saying “I’m kneeling to show disrespect for the country” and automatically tying the anthem/flag with the military (and therefore the disrespect as well). Disrespect for the country (and issue of police shootings/racism in it) doesn’t necessarily mean disrespect for the military. To me that’s a leap in logic from the anti-kneeling crowd, assuming that anthem/flag = military and therefore everyone who hates the flag is disrespecting veterans.
I know the case is over, but people ignoring Kaepernick’s charity work is a pet peeve of mine. Colin Kaepernick Charity: Where QB donates his money - Sports Illustrated
He didn’t help himself when he wore a Castro shirt.
Or claiming he refuses to vote. I don’t give a shit what he does during the anthem, but the guy isn’t exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Or the pig police socks.
I support his right to make a statement but I don’t always like how he protests and he’s definitely inconsistent when he tries to backtrack about some of the things he says and does.
For example, the socks disrespect police in general. When he was asked if he would clarify that he doesn’t consider cops in general to be corrupt and/or murderers he didn’t. But then another time he tried to temper it by saying he has two uncles and friends who are cops so he’s not indicting them all.
He’s also said he has no pride for a country that oppresses “black people and people of color”. And while I don’t share the sentiment I understand why he feels that way. But he also claims that he’s not anti-American. Again, if you aren’t consistent, it’s hard to take you seriously.
The one thing that I think he is consistent on is ironically what is also probably what most people are angry about. I’ve never seen him criticize the military in word or deed. That I give him credit for. Some people insist you can’t disrespect the flag/national anthem/country without disrespecting the military and I think that’s nonsense. They aren’t the same. You can dislike the country but respect men and women in uniform and vice versa.
FoieGrassIsEvil, I think the key point which you make (and which got a little lost in the total volume of your original note), is that some chose to read it as disrespect to veterans.
It has become increasingly common to let how a message is received dictate how the message or sender should be treated. While sometimes this is valid (I may mean nothing bad by calling a little person a midget, but they are well within bounds of reasonableness to be offended by it) it sometimes isn’t (if all of a sudden German people took offense to the word Marzipan, it wouldn’t be reasonable to expect us to stop using it when discussing confections). So it is a continuum. At the beginning of this issue, the offense taken by those who felt it was disrespectful of the US military was on the Marzipan side of the spectrum, as there is no clear indication such disrespect was ever meant. If enough of them object for long enough, it starts moving towards the other end.
Also, it isn’t a protest if nobody is upset, inconvenienced or intrigued.
Also, I think the move from remaining seated (which could just show poor manners or attitude) to kneeling both actually showed respect, and made it unambiguously a protest.
Last, if anyone (not in the armed forces or government of the US) is ever forced to stand for the anthem, standing for the anthem loses all meaning.
The pig socks were stupid and happened, IIRC, before the anthem protest. I’m not sure he was taking things serious.
The not voting thing was frustrating, but part of a very widespread notion in 2016 that the two candidates were equally bad. That idea has been around a while, but really took off aided by Russian propaganda during the last election.
Kap has a lot of work to do if he wants to be a leader. I’m a fan, but I’m not sure he’s up to it.
The overall issue of the protests is that the viewers who have been convinced it’s against the military or whatever are unable or unwilling to think about the real problem of racism in this country.
If the NFL allowed Tibow to pray on the field I would have hated it, but it wouldn’t cause me to stop watching the games. If people want to stop watching the game because some players are sitting/kneeling during the national anthem, that’s fine with me. It’s a free country. I don’t agree, but I certainly don’t give a shit if people like the OP’s dad stop watching games. I am surprised, however, that some members of our military are so thin skinned.
Wait, what? How does saying you don’t have pride in a country mean you are anti that country? That’s just silly black and white thinking, IMO.
Neither of these are inconsistent. He didn’t clarify once, but then later did. Simply not saying something doesn’t contradict later saying it. He has in fact repeatedly clarified that the socks were not attacking all police officers.
(I also note that calling cops “pigs” was popularized in the Civil Rights era [though the coinage does predate that usage]. So it makes it a historically appropriate symbol against racist cops. Not all cops were racist, and the Civil Rights Movement was not anti-cop.)
Then he said he has no pride in his country, but also that he is not anti-American. So he doesn’t like what his country is doing (and thus can’t be proud of it), but he’s not going to be bigoted towards you because you live in the US or avoid an item because it was made in the U.S. Nor is he calling for something bad to happen to the country.
It’s like my drug addict cousin. Am I proud of him for that? No. Am I against him as a person? Not the slightest.
No, he’s not. The gesture he is doing is still respectful. It’s a gesture he specifically chose to continue to show respect. He is not doing something that would show disrespect, like flipping off the flag or something.
Not doing something is not disrespect. It’s just neutral. Substituting one respectful gesture for another is still respectful, while also calling attention to your cause.
If someone came to my church and didn’t stand when worshiping, I would not call them disrespectful. If they instead chose to kneel, I would think they were being respectful in a different way. If they did it where everyone could see, then I’d assume they wanted to draw attention to themselves. If they later clarify that they did it because the choir was racist, then I’d think they were disrespecting the choir, but I would not jump from that to disrespecting God, even if his Church is his representative on Earth.
This claim that he is disrespecting the country or the military is just an appeal to emotion. They can’t argue with his cause, so they attack his form. They’d rather do that then give a shit about black people.
That’s the only reason they push the disrespect narrative when he had made it very clear that he does not disrespect the country or the military. He disrespects the police system.
I didn’t mention the pig socks (which seem more of just a joke), but the not voting. And it had nothing to do with the “both candidates are equally bad”, it’s because he seems to see it as participating in “systematic oppression”. And the presidential election is not the only one out there, which makes him irresponsible in my opinion. I also think him showing support for Castro is kinda fucked up.
I disagree with this. Many people who are totally NOT “unable or unwilling to think about the real problem of racism in this country” do not believe this protest is a good way to deal with the problem, as what it does is piss off many of the people who are in a position to do something about the problem. Not saying I totally buy this position, but you can’t assume those who dislike the action are all somehow unaware or unconvinced that there is a problem.
I agree, Whether the protest has merit or not, it is an inappropriate time and place for it. People tune in or attend NFL games for a respite from all-too-constant political turmoil. If attending, they are paying big bucks for entertainment, and shouldn’t need to put up with political protests that distract from what they have paid for. Would you want to pay money to attend a play or movie and have some overpaid actor take it upon himself to perform a public protest? The players have ample other hours to do whatever they want to right injustices that they perceive.
Sending that was a mistake.
What you said is true, but so what?
Truth can be painful.
Just insist on not talking about it.
Now your Dad may say or doo something you will both regret.
It seems perversely funny to me that seemingly the people who are most offended by the kneeling NFL players are the exact same people who despite all their moaning can’t tear themselves away from watching the TV broadcasts of what amounts to nothing more than a silly, stupid game. From all the media I’ve listened to or watched, friends I’ve talked to the same people that swore they wouldn’t ever watch another game, they all seem to admit that they couldn’t stay away or keep cheating and turning the channel back to whatever football game is on at the moment. I can’t stand watching sports so I guess I’ll never understand it.
This was kinda my point, in a nut. Father has alcohol-fueled rant about how he and his “veterans groups” are boycotting the games, then as soon as my sons and I (admitted NFL addicts, mostly due to Madden video games) show up. the rant continues.
I think part of the problem is my dad having an 167" TV in his media room. With speakers in the walls and it looks and sounds incredible. It sounds and looks amazing, and after a time, he cannot look away either.
Who the hell are YOU to decide when someone else’s protest is appropriate? That’s the whole god damn point.
Right, but it was more about the hypocrisy than anything. Had he truly stopped watching the games, then his position would have been consistent and I would have respected his decision a hell of a lot more.
He also claims that he and his veteran’s groups (and like-minded people) are the sole reason for the decline in NFL ticket sales to go to the games, but that’s an argument for another time.