So everybody knows that not standing is disrespectful, huh?
What about sitting? I think we’ve established that people don’t think that’s disrespectful - at least not enough to boo. Despite the fact it’s not standing.
That kind of destroys your entire point, by the way.
Kneeling would be, upon the first sighting of it, quite odd. It’s not a common action to take during the anthem (unlike, say, staying seated), so it’s surprising, and draws attention to itself. But there’s nothing about kneeling itself that’s disrespectful. Prior to the right wing bullshit-spouting, there was no set interpretation of it at all. By default it would have the same meaning as other forms of not-standing, such as sitting: not particularly offensive at all.
However, the kneeling was a black man drawing attention to himself. Which extremely racist people don’t like, on principle.
So you’re right - I was probably incorrect in saying that the majority of the booing was due to the booers being (merely) stupid. It was, in actual fact, probably the case that every single person booing was a piece of shit racist.
Initially.
After the initial event, the piece of shit racists heading up the right wing news/bullshit/optics outlets got a hold of this and, noticing that it was in fact a peaceful and respectful protest by and for black people, deliberately changed the optics to them dirty blacks are disrespecting the flags and troops and country and probably kill cops and soldiers for fun!
So now the set of ‘booers’ has been expanded from ‘just racists’ to ‘racists and people influenced by right wing media’.
It is a dumb argument. If you polled Americans before this and asked if not standing during an anthem meant disrespect 92% would have said yes. But because it is somehow a partisan issue now, some people insist on trying to gaslight us and claim a gesture everyone understands in context has a different meaning because it is sometimes used to mean other things in different context.
Its not like this is some obscure social convention that no one know about. Twostudents in Hong Kong were kicked out of a graduation ceremony for not showing respect for staying seated for the national anthem.
A woman in Australia was charged with disrespect behavior for not standing when the judge entered the court.
A democratsenator accused others of disrespect for not standing for the president during the SOTU.
A manin the Phillipines was arrested for not standing for the national anthem before a movie.
A poetin Jamaica was accused of disrespect for not standing for the opening of the legislature. Twostudents in India were accused of disrespect for not standing for the national anthem. Democratswere accused of disrespect by a victim’s father for not standing during a portion of the SOTU. VicePresident Pence accused of disrespect for not standing during Korean olympic entrance.
Not standing during a time of ceremonial respect is a sign of deliberate disrespect that is universal and understood by everyone. Pretending it is not is just arguing in bad faith or insulting our intelligence.
Do you not understand the difference between standing and kneeling? You are expected to stand during the national anthem. I assume I don’t need to spell out the dictionary definition of what standing is. Small children understand this. Why can’t you?
It is not inherently disrespectful to do a LOT of things that are not called for the occasion, but could CERTAINLY be easily perceived that way. Shall we name ones for church, funerals, etc., since we seem to be fond of making comparisons?
If a football game is somehow all that stands between the solidarity and dissolution, we have far bigger problems than a man kneeling at the national anthem. And yes, it is unquestionably about race. If a white player had ‘taken the knee’ in respect to fallen veterans, or to bring attention to the opioid crisis, or any of a number non-contraversial issues, there would not be any perception that this was disrespecting the flag or veterans or the country. And the nonsense claim that his is ‘bad optics’ is equivalent to claiming that blacks should just protest quietly from the back of the bus instead of insisting on sitting up front.
It’s not the anthem, it’s the performer they get to scream the words it into a microphone. Besides, we’d all stand for the anthem at the SDSU games, and just after the “bombs bursting in air” verse, we’d loudly sing “Boom, Boom, Boom.” I don’t know why the players don’t do that.
What’s being destroyed is your ability to be consistent. I agreed with you that the booers were morons, and now they can’t just be morons, they have to be thousands of racist pieces of shit. Because now you have to be racist, not just stupid, to misunderstand abstract protesting. Jesus, I’m done.
I formally apologize to all the morons in the world for jumping the gun and blaming their ilk for starting this racist shit. Morons have fallen for the lies about this racist shit, but it’s quite likely that they didn’t start it. Innocent confusion wouldn’t generate all that many boos. (As you presumably would have pointed out if you didn’t prefer the “morons” guess to the more accurate “racists” conclusion.)
The proof in this case is sitting. All this harping on how “not standing” is disrespectful is (willfully and deliberately) ignoring that people have “not stood” a lot and not elicited this sort of response. The only real plausible explanation for this hullabaloo is racists hating black people for drawing attention to themselves and their causes.
And the gullible falling for the racists’ bullshit optics about it.
I’ve been on the side of the players from the beginning. I do believe it was not intended to be disrespectful. I have never been offended by their protest. I do not think the league should penalize the protestors.
but
Ashtura has point. The intention is irrelevant when considering offense. Feelings are never invalid.
If I tell a joke and you take offense does it matter that I meant no offense?
If I comment inappropriately on how you look, but I meant it in a good way, does that mean I have not harassed you if you feel harassed?
President Trump and Ashtura and others were offended by the protests, and those feelings are just as valid as my non-offense.
I do not agree that the protests are inherently offensive, just because you feel offended doesn’t mean everyone should. Kneeling has never (before) been viewed as disrespectful, but I have to recognize that some where offended.
Your offense, however, does not put you on the moral high ground; does not make you a better American than me. The players are not, likewise, un-American because they chose to protest in a way that rankled you.
As Grrr! said perceptions don’t change if they are not challenged, and when you challenge you run the risk of offending.
It’s the most American of traditions.
By the way, I’d like to thank the opponents of kneeling for participating in this discussion. The true reasons behind their ire were never really clear to me until I saw their terrible arguments and the one specific issue that they’re all dancing around. I’d never looked close enough at this until now to realize that opposition to the kneeling protests truly is all just antiamerican/racist bullshit.
(What? I don’t pay attention to football. This stuff hasn’t really been on my radar.)
The thing is it is not abstract protesting. Maybe it was abstract for the first few minutes but people got on to the reason pretty fast.
And yeah, they are racists pieces of shit because they choose to completely ignore what the players are on about by kneeling and instead act shocked…SHOCKED!..at the disrespect to the United States of America! Nevermind when these players tell them what it is about and that they love their country. Doesn’t matter! Kneeling is disrespect! I am hard pressed to see how that is animated by anything other than racism (whether they recognize it or not).
It was never all that abstract, of course. It was a little abstract in the sense that he wasn’t holding up a sign that said “By the way, please don’t shoot black people”, but no rational person would ever consider kneeling to be more disrespectful to the country than sitting - until some racist told them it was, anyway.
That’s why I’d like to see them stay in there until the NFL comes to their senses. No players on the fields = no games, and players in the locker rooms = no room for scabs. The NFL would be scrambling to find alternate venues for scabs or decide that there’s not really a problem after all.
I think the proposal is of the ‘hyuk hyuk they don’t come out to play at all’ variety - which is amusing for us non-sports-goers to think about, but would probably result in some kind of legal action against the players if actually attempted, due to them refusing to honor their contracts and do their jobs.
And since the entire and complete goal* of all this hullabaloo to get those protesting black people out of sight I imagine they’ll go easier on players that hide in the locker room since that’s a preferred behavior over visible protesting, albeit not as optimal as just playing along.
Well, yes. If you are looking to take offense to anything I say, and I say something like, “Traffic is so bad, even a chicken couldn’t cross the road.” And you choose to find a way to twist my words to “justify” your offense, then it does matter that I didn’t mean any offense.
Well, there, you put the word “inappropriately”, so no, and you didn’t mean it in a good way. If however, it was not innapropriate, and you still take offense then I have not harassed you, even if you choose o twist my words to justify yourself feeling that way.
Sure they were. If trump, Ashura, and pence go around to all the football parties and demand that people get out of the bathroom, and stand for the national anthem, then they can claim to be rightfully offended. If they don’t, then they are choosing this time and place to find a way to be offended about it.
Protests are always inherently offensive. They are offensive to the people that don’t want to change what is being protested. That they choose to justify their offense over other people not following the official protocols of patriotism that we celebrate in this land of the “free” does not mean that the reason that they are looking to take superficial offense is not to prevent the conversation from being what they are really offended about, having to change something that they don’t want changed.
Agreed.
I did find it very offensive that people were booing during the national anthem. My perception was that they were booing the flag, our country, and all the people that have fought to protect it.