Philip Rivers didn’t start until year 3, and Aaron Rodgers didn’t start until year 4.
Not because they were babied by their franchises, but because there was an entrenched starting-quality QB ahead of them. No team with nothing at QB is going to wait more than 2 years to see if their highly drafted quarterback has anything.
It would be the height of foolishness for the Browns to go in with a top 3 pick this year and skip a quarterback because they’ve decided to see if Manziel might pan out when they finally get him some action in year 3 because they deliberately chose not to see if he could cut it or improve in year 2 during a lost year.
It would be less foolish but certainly sub-optimal for them to draft a QB in the top 3 and then have it turn out the Johnny was actually pretty good when given the chance.
NFL QBs aren’t 12 year olds. They don’t get ruined by playing the game they’ve dedicated their lives to playing. They crave that chance to prove themselves, and it’s there that you find out if you have a QB, and develop them if you do.
You’re not waiting for him to get “starting experience”. You’re waiting for him to be able to run an NFL offense. He’s shown, over and over, he’s not ready to. He’s ready to improvise, yes. He’s ready to run around and throw it. But making pre-snap reads, changing plays, trusting your pocket, looking to your second or third option, throwing with anticipation, and the rest of the skills it takes to run a NFL style offense are all beyond him most of the time.
When he’s asked to run the NFL offense, he looks lost. He’s unproductive, and can’t seem to get past his first read. Like the second half of the Bengals game. When he’s allowed to free-wheel it, he looks better. Like the first half of the Bengals game.
I sometimes forget how desperate fans can get of a losing team. Like you convince yourself Don Majikowski is a real NFL QB.
I think the better plan is to actually work on this thing called “player development”, especially at the QB position. I don’t think “play him or throw him away” is the best way to make your team better. Manziel has some great physical skills, and could, if he can get his brain involved, could develop into a legitimately good starting QB. But you risk that development if you throw him out there and let him do what he’s done for his entire life: rely on his physical skills and freelance. Instead the Browns are trying to develop him into a QB who can run a big boy offense. We’ll see if it works.
I don’t doubt that Pettine doesn’t like Manziel. Manziel has been an arrogant little shit with a bad attitude and an apparent drinking problem. What’s not to love? If you believe that Manziel has completely changed from his frat boy, selfish prick ways and is now a hard working, dedicated NFL QB, then there is hope for his future. And Manziel has gotten better. Compared to last year, he’s miles ahead as an NFL QB. He’s just still miles from being a legit starting QB capable of running a NFL offense.
I don’t think you should write off an asset like Manziel this early. It is in the long term interest of the team to develop him into a legit NFL QB. And they’re not going to do that if they continue to throw him out there when he can’t/doesn’t run the offense.
What do you suggest the Browns do if they end up with a top 3 pick and Manziel is unproven? You don’t get many good shots at landing a franchise QB. Would you advocate passing up on that chance to see in year 3 if Manziel might be a capable starter?
Depends on who is available. I’m not a “we have to draft a QB no matter what” kind of person. I’m much more of a “draft the best player available” type of person. And, to be honest, I don’t know much about this years QB draft class. And I have no clue if Manziel is actually putting in the time and effort to develop into an NFL QB. If I think he is, and can, that would weigh in on who I take. If I think he’s a lost cause, that would weigh in too. But, again, I’m a BPA type of drafter.
I assume your concern for playing him before he can command an offense and play from the huddle is concern for the idea that you’d break him and ruin him as a player if you rushed him in too fast, right? Rather than it not giving the Browns the best chance to win. Because at this point losing is desirable. Yes, I know, the macho thing is to say “I’d never root for my team to lose”, but the Browns could’ve had Andrew Luck if not for a meaningless win or two that no one remembers or cares about now. They’ve done that a few times.
I think the concerns for ruining QBs are way overstated. Most of them learn by playing. They’re among the best at what they do in the whole world. They’re some of the most driven, confident, cocky people on the planet - some adversity doesn’t make them fold up and quit. Maybe you could make a case for extreme situations like Tim Couch or David Carr, but you’d be assuming they weren’t just bad.
I think playing the rest of the year would accelerate Manziel’s learning rather than stunt it, in any case. It’s unclear whether or not it would affect the Browns’ chances to win from here on out. But it would definitely give them rather vital information for their future plans.
Contrary to his own ego, it’s not all about Johnny. It’s about running an NFL offense, with all the players on the same page and working together rather than having a QB who just kinda wings it. Johnny is, as of now, not capable/willing to run the offense you’ve designed, so putting him out there to do his college game level QBing isn’t just hurting him, it’s hurting your team.
Andrew Luck is a once in a decade player. Tanking in order to get a higher draft pick could just as easily, if not more likely, result in RGIII or Sam Bradford. Is there someone in this NFL draft class you think is going to be Andrew Luck?
With Manziel, it’s not about “ruining him”. To my mind, he’s already “ruined” by a lifetime of playing football completely differently than the NFL game. The question, to my mind, is how is it best to develop him into an NFL QB. Some QB’s, say like an Andy Dalton, can learn best by playing. Others, like RGIII, couldn’t. It depends on what you think of him and his ability to learn the QB position. While he’s certainly gotten better, Manziel still doesn’t seem to me to be ready to play the position like it is required in the NFL.
It depends on him. I think it’s obvious his coach doesn’t think so. From my limited viewing, I agree. He doesn’t seem interested in learning how to play the position as an NFL QB and more interested in playing the way he’s played for decades. Throwing him out there, when he’s not ready and not interested in playing the way you want him to, does nothing to help your team.
Well, “decades” may be a stretch. He’s not even 23 years old yet.
Here’s the thing, the Browns ain’t making the playoffs. I agree Johnny is not an NFL ready QB, able to read defenses and change plays, but I like the idea of putting out there on the field and getting the experience. And as not-ready-for-prime-time as he is, he’s still looked half-ways competent when he’s played this year. He can make plays McCown can’t. Can he improve? We won’t know. If the Browns were even 4-5 right now instead of 2-7, I’d say yeah, put McCown out there because we’ve got a sliver of a chance to do something. And I do think Pettine holds some kind of grudge against Manziel. I think Pettine feels like his ass is canned either way, so he’s going to make the organization tell him to start Manziel.
I see this line of thinking as pure desperation, rather than trying to do what is best for your ballclub. Just throwing him out there to do his thing won’t teach him anything, won’t develop him as a NFL QB, and will lose the rest of the team. Until he decides to play within the system, rather than being Johnny Football, trotting him out there won’t accomplish anything except give the fans a few nice splash plays to ease the pain of losing.
Obviously, I disagree. What better way to learn and develop than to play the game on the field? When you’re 2-7 and fielding a roster such as the Browns’, there’s no such thing as desperation.
Best case with McCown in the remaining 7 games they win, what, 3 of them?
Worst case with Johnny they lose out, but you have a better draft position and something closer to a final verdict on what you have and what you need at QB.
What game do you want him to learn?
If he’s willing and able to run the gameplan (which he hasn’t been able to do), and use the time as to learn, then sure, trot him out there. But if he’s going to go out there and play college ball like he has so many times in the past, then you’re not helping him, or the team, at all.
I don’t know Manziel, or how much work he’s willing to do, or how much he’s willing to stick with the gameplan and get better as a NFL QB. But his coaches are not enamored with how he’s playing/developing. Too often it seems he’s just fine skipping his reads, leaving the pocket, and running around until someone gets open. If that’s what he’s going to do, he won’t develop as a NFL QB. He’ll stay Johnny Football, get himself hurt, and rack up the losses while teams learn how to contain him. If he’s going to execute an NFL gameplan and try and learn to be an NFL QB, then there is a chance he’ll use these games to develop, ala Dalton. But so far it appears he’s not, and his coaches don’t think he is either.
Well, Rivers and Rodgers are not Manziel. And most teams drafting first round QBs do not have Hall of Fame guys in front of them.
That said, McCown is playing quite well. I’m not entirely opposed to letting him continue starting; there is something to be said for playing to win games even if you can’t make the playoffs.
I’m not sure about this either. Sure, Manziel is ignoring the called plays and improvising. But he’s running the called plays too. He may not necessarily be learning the playbook but he’s learning what works and what doesn’t in the NFL.
Personally, I’ve never believed Manziel had a shot at this level and I don’t believe it now. If you go back and watch his TAMU games he wasn’t that good there either. Most of the time he was just chucking it up and hoping Mike Evans or some other receiver whose name I forgot came down with it.
If you’ve got time on your hands and any interest, this SB Nation article takes a look at some of the film on Manziel. I don’t know the analyst from a hole in the ground, but he does, to me at least, make some good points about the way Manziel plays, or more precisely, doesn’t play.
And, were I Manziel’s coach, I would fear that his 1st half against the Bengals and the reaction of the fanbase aren’t helping Manziel. He’s learning “what works” is running around and hoping, but I really don’t think that kind of “success” is sustainable, as evidenced by the second half of that game. And I tend to think the Browns coaching staff, which is likely breaking down the tape in much more detail, is looking at the way Manziel is playing, and they conclude that he’s simply not ready or willing to run an NFL offense either. I suppose it’s easier to say that the coaches are all idiots and only out to win meaningless games, but I think the coaching staff may be better suited to make the determination of Manziel’s progress and whether it merits a starting position. At least until he gets his stuff together.
To be clear, I hated the Manziel draft pick from the jump. But he’s actually been at his best so far when he improvises. He is not a drop back QB and the Browns damn well knew it when they picked him. He was never a guy that the Browns were going to mold into a pro style QB. But now they’re stuck with him and I think they have to let him do what he does. It will work or it won’t.
See, I think he’s talented enough to make it work. He doesn’t have to be a Peyton Manning/Tom Brady stand in the pocket QB. But he does have to have the ability and desire to learn how to read defenses pre-snap, know his progressions, and all the rest esoteric stuff that comes with being a real NFL QB. I think Manziel certainly has enough talent to be an on-the-move QB like Russell Wilson. But to become that, he has to learn how to play the QB position. And he hasn’t so far, and it sounds like the coaching staff don’t think he has either. The talent is there. But it appears the head isn’t.
The other option is, as you say, just throw him out there to play his sandlot game. But, as I’ve said, I think the only result that will come from that is more losses, an injured Manziel, and a few splash plays that make everyone feel good until they look at the scoreboard.
Indeed, there’s pretty good precedent for this particular problem.
Manziel has a much better chance than Tebow ever did. Manziel possesses an NFL caliber arm and has a quick delivery that Tebow never did and never will. The tools are there with Manziel, they weren’t with Tebow. I think a better comparison for Manziel is a less electric, less talented Michael Vick. But Vick, like Manziel so far, wasn’t willing to put in the work to develop his talents to be a legitimate passer in the NFL. With Manziel, there is still a chance he could (he might not, he might just not have the mental ability). Throwing him out there to play his brand of Johnny Football, however, won’t help him develop it all, and certainly won’t help the Browns determine if he ever can.
Arguably true, but the difference between “can’t” and “won’t” isn’t relevant to the central point: if Manziel won’t learn to use his tools properly, it’ll be Tebow 2.0. So the risk of letting him just “Johnny Football” his way into uselessness is very real.