I know that, and I figured as much, but when those are the people who dominate the public image of the issue, you can see why people might be disinclined to be supportive, I hope.
Well, if you’re going to go solely by what the TV shows you, you’re hardly going to have a completely informed opinion, that’s for sure.
Just to clear up a little confusion –
When I made my “compare and contrast lifestyle” suggestion way back at the top of this page, I had no idea I’d be branded a racist. I fail to see how the idea in itself is racist. Yes, I identified black Americans and black West Africans, but not as a racial slur – I thought the slaves taken from West Africa (and hence, their descendants requesting reparations) were black. If that’s not the case, I stand corrected and apologize.
Second, I fail to see how colonialism on the part of European powers would affect the overall outcome. That colonialism would have occurred regardless of whether slaves were taken to America or not, right? So the standard of living today would still be the same – or at least in the same ballpark. I fail to see how this is specious logic.
Third, I have no idea what the result of a comparsion of the overall standard of living for a descendant of slaves in America vs. a modern-day West African would be. For all I know, a West African enjoys a much higher standard of living. If that is the case, reparations are justified, in my opinion. Having said that, it’s obvious that I am ignorant of living conditions in West Africa. Perhaps they’re so poor as to make such a comparison laughable.
But for reparation-supporters to dismiss the suggestion out of hand seems ridiculous to me. Why would that be an unfair gauge? If descendants of slaves would have been better off where they were (i.e. West Africa), pay them. If they’re better off where they are (i.e. the U.S.), don’t pay them. How are you going to establish the level of possible reparations if you don’t have a baseline?
I think the fact that proponents of reparations, such as olentzero and easyphil are unwilling to answer the question of whether or not they think it is fair to give someone preferential treatment based upon who their ancestors were, I have nothing more to really add to this discussion.
Erek
Grendel72
“It is just money”
Great…YOU pay out reparations from your own pocket if you want to. But MY ancestors didn’t come over to the US until AFTER the Civil War, NEVER owned slaves and HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OWNING SLAVES, MUCH LESS PROFITEERING FROM OWNING SLAVES.
Yet, simply because I am white, Iwould have to pay out reparations.
For something someone else’sancestor did to someone else’sancestor HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. It’s stupid, nonsensical and idiotic beyond belief. Good God Almighty, my ancestry is German…does this mean I can sue the descendents of the Huns for the damage they caused MY ancestors!!! No one except for a few nutcases with a combined IQ of an eggplant will deny that racism was AND IS a terrible problem.
But this simply isn’t the way to solve it!
…checking in late here…
The problem is that this is not a guaranteed outcome. When colonialism began, Africa had already been fractured by nearly three hundred years of slave-taking and the internecine warfare that accompanied it. (It also gave up as many as 20 million people to the trade.)
Compare the African societies with, say, Japan or Thailand. If the Africans had been able to import technology in the initial stages of the first European/African meetings and had then banded together under a Shaka-like leader at an earlier moment, there is no guarantee that the colonialism would have occured as it happened. (Truth Seeker’s point was that if the issue went to trial, the speculation would have to be ignored, but if we are simply considering the philosophical implications of slavery, I think we do not to factor the what-ifs.)
FTR, I do not consider your earlier post racist–I do think that it is a bit disingenuous.
I think we do have to factor the what-ifs
I see, tomndebb. Granted then that there’s no way to compare the two standards of living, how does one go about setting a baseline to determine the amount of any potential reparations?
What I was trying to do earlier was remove any hint of emotion from the equation. (If this came across as disingenuous, that’s my fault.) Apparently this is more difficult for some to do than others. I’m all about fair-share payments if such payments are warranted, but I refuse to indulge in some pie-in-the-sky figure. I want to see some cold hard stats on what amount is justifiable, and the only way I know to do that is a comparison model. Since that’s apparently out, what formula do we use? I’m not going to take the word of a radical who says something to the effect of “I’m gonna slap the next white person I see.”
I’m talking about justice, not vengeance.
You and I both benefitted from the legacy of slavery. Yes, we have had to work for what we’ve got, but we’ve gotten what we worked for, unlike some others.
That’s all I see in this all too publicized pack of crap (thanks to the liberal fourth estate) that Calypso Louis and his pack of “gimme” weasels trotted out in DC.
Screw 'em.
I’m a bit confused about why colonialism is viewed by so many as an absolute negative effect. Colonialism brought railways, modern medecine and stabilized borders as well as an education system and centralized governments. All this was done to facilitate easier control by the colonists, but it still had a net improvement effect for the populace in these particular matters. It is just as easy the theorize that if there had been no colonials then ongoing warfare, the spread of the Zulu empire, or rampant disease would have done a much better job of depopulating Arfica than slavery.
“What have the Romans ever done for us?” “Well they gave us the aquaduct.” “Yeah! And medecine. And don’t forget about the pax Romanus. You can walk the streets at night with the Romans around here.” “Ok, Ok, aside from sanitation, civil order, education, medecine, education, the roads, and government, what have the Romans ever done for us?” "Nothing! Splitters!
I’m a bit confused about why colonialism is viewed by so many as an absolute negative effect. Colonialism brought railways, modern medecine and stabilized borders as well as an education system and centralized governments. All this was done to facilitate easier control by the colonists, but it still had a net improvement effect for the populace in these particular matters. It is just as easy the theorize that if there had been no colonials then ongoing warfare, the spread of the Zulu empire, or rampant disease would have done a much better job of depopulating Arfica than slavery.
“What have the Romans ever done for us?” “Well they gave us the aquaduct.” “Yeah! And medecine. And don’t forget about the pax Romanus. You can walk the streets at night with the Romans around here.” “Ok, Ok, aside from sanitation, civil order, education, medecine, education, the roads, and government, what have the Romans ever done for us?” "Nothing! Splitters!"
I haven’t benefited one bit from slavery–just the opposite in fact. My ancestors were religious immigrants (farmers) who lived in the Northeast and never owned slaves. In fact, I have several relatives who died during the Civil War fighting for the Union. So, in effect, ending slavery in the US cost me several ancestors who could have become wealthy and thus (in this bizarre alternative history) theoretically passed all this loot down to my parents and then to me. Therefore I’m not rich because my ancestors helped end slavery. No really. Also, I’m Scottish and we all know how badly the Brits have screwed the Scots all these years so England owes me some serious cash as well. If this ever gets passed (and I seriously doubt it will), I’m entitled to some reparations too.
<races off wildly screaming ‘gimme gimme gimme!’>
Wabbit, I will guarantee that you have benifitted from the legacy of slavery. Were you born in a ghetto? Did you go to a delapidated public school where the teachers had no expectation that you would ever amount to anything? Are you automatically assumed to be a criminal by police officers?
Did any of you who are bitching about this watch the rally on Saturday? As I said earlier, the extremism of some of the speakers bothered me- the extremism of some here bothers me as well. The statement about “slapping a white man” was pretty damn extreme, but you know what? I am a white man, and reading several of the responses in this thread, as well as the one in GD, have made me want to slap the shit out of a cracker.
Hold on there, grendel. That’s not an example of Wabbit benefitting from the legacy of slavery. There’s no evidence that if slavery had never occurred, that he would then have been born in a ghetto, or would have gone to a delapidated public school, or be automatically assumed to be a criminal by the police.
How do ghetto’s, underfunded public schools and racial profiling help me grendel? Do you think reparations will fix these problems or make them worse?
Why does arguing against giving people a chunk of cash which they have done nothing to deserve (at the expense of not only the rest of the country, but also–in the long run–the racial group it’s supposed to help) make me a ‘cracker’? Do you feel comfortable using racial terms like that?
Will slapping the shit out of me resolve any of our differences or just make you feel better?
For the record, grendel, my beef here is with whiners: I hate 'em. I hate every dumbass, lazy piece of crap who pisses and moans about how everyone is out to get them and would rather sit around whining than go out and better themselves. I hate people who blame their parents, society, aliens, etc. etc.–everyone but themselves–for their lot in life and refuse to take responsibility for their situation. I have no sympathy for them, and will vigorously denounce their parasitic lifestyle every chance I get. And you know what? Whining is not based on race. Some of the most useless pieces of protoplasm I’ve ever met have been white males, in fact. Just don’t expect me to suddenly get all misty-eyed and sympathetic because these particular whiners are largely black. You want to fund public schools, increase affordable housing for the poor and stop police harrassment? Fine, I’m with ya. But telling me I should give money to some whining piece of crap for something that didn’t even happen to them is, quite frankly, moronic.
Yes it is, Neurotik. Jim Crow, segregation, “white flight”- all of these things are the legacy of slavery.
I didn’t grow up in the South grendel–Jim Crow and segregation didn’t help me one bit (and I fail to see how ‘white flight’ can be anything but harmful to me).
God no, it wouldn’t make me feel better. I don’t like being angry, and I wasn’t talking specifically about your posts- certain posters want to brand me with the most extreme statements that supporters for reparations have made, simply because I’m not violently opposed to the idea, well some of the posters who are violently opposed really scare me. I’ve pointed out that several of the more extreme proponents of reparations bother me as much as those like 'uigi who are opposed. pldennison is the only opponent of reparations to even attempt to distance himself from such extremists.
What I was trying to say by my “slap a cracker” comment, stupid as it was, is that even though I am a target of that rage, I can understand it when I read what some of our posters have had to say on the subject.
I don’t consider airing a legitimate grievance whining. Even if nothing can be done about it, it is not whining to point out that something is unfair.
Hmm, ok then. I agree that slavery is/was unfair and that it has had lasting consequences in our society. I do not agree that reparations are the way to go; affordable housing, trying to encourage development in poorer neighborhoods, and improving education will go much farther in redressing these kinds of problems than just handing out cash. Just my .02, of course… 