No fucking Slavery Reparations for you!

The BBQ Pit
241

I’m not trying to persuade you of the justice of the cause - not yet, anyway. I’m first trying to find out why you find the cause to be unjust.

True, their ancestors were enslaved, but they were freed as well. Nothing can erase the fact that Japanese-Americans were interred in prison camps, but they were released as well. Nothing can erase the Holocaust, but it also came to an end. Yet I don’t see the Japanese or the Jews as a whole still demanding reparations because “my family was imprisoned or destroyed”, nor do I remember hearing that objection voiced when the issue was being discussed.

The fact that you don’t like the leaders you’ve been exposed to by the media isn’t a strong enough argument against reparations in general. You can’t assume those who support reparations - Black or white - think exactly the same as the most visible and vocal leaders.

242

Except for Plessy, all the things you mention were the result of state and local government action, not Federal government action. The Federal government put paid to those questions with Brown and with the passage of the postbellum amendments. And, when it was clear that states were not succesfully integrating on their own, or providing equal protection to all races, the Federal government took the issue away from them and passed the Civil Rights Act in 1964.

So, if anything, to the extent that reparations proponents are seeking restitution for government action, they should be seeking it from those state governments, not from the Federal government. They were the ones that done somebody wrong. Perhaps the Feds should have responded more quickly, but they did respond. The states, on the other hand, had to be forced to integrate.

When Little Rock schools were being integrated in 1957, it wasn’t the Federal government trying to prevent nine black students from entering–it was the Governor and the National Guard of Arkansas. The President send in Federal troops to protect those children. So the beef ain’t with the Feds, it’s with the State of Arkansas.

(FYI, there are still Jews, living victims of the Holocaust or their children, seeking additional reparations. Remember all the furor over the Swiss bank accounts recently?)

And when you say, “You cannot honestly argue that the descendants of slaves did not suffer from the oppression of their ancestors. They still do,” that’s a little bit too broad of a statement to wrap my head around. It doesn’t address people as individuals, but as members of a group. Which black people are the descendants of slaves? How do we know? How do I even know that this Charles Barron guy was ever related to a slave, and instead isn’t just a race-baiting muckraker? I don’t. How do I know Michael Jordan isn’t descended from slaves? He certainly hasn’t suffered or been oppressed.

I’d love to live in a society where the quality of educational opportunities, where college admissions, loan applications, job opportunities, and everything else, were truly color-blind. I don’t think that reparations for something that occurred more than 130 years ago is the way to achieve it.

243

**
They are not, after all, true Scotsmen!

Olentzero, you have yet to articulate any reasonable basis for paying reparations for slavery to anyone currently living.

Please respond to the following hypothetical. Note that it is my hypothetical, so please don’t change the facts.

All of John Q. Average’s great, great, great grandparents were slaves brought over from West Africa in 1800. John earns the average salary, as calculated by the U.S. census that African Americans earn, has the average education level for African Americans, etc. etc. John is, in fact, average in every way.

Now, assume, instead, that the United States had decided to elminate slavery in 1787. Would John’s personal economic position be better or worse than it is today? How?

244

And, as I pointed out much earlier, the Federal government actually tried, through the Freedmans’ Bureau, to give freed Blacks land and farm animals with which to make a living - but eventually bowed to the pressure of the dispossessed Southern landowners and returned the land they’d seized. It doesn’t seem like the Federal and state governments were at odds over this issue anyway, since parts of the armed forces were segregated until World War II and afterwards. Bravo for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, of course, but to lay the initiative at the feet of the US government completely ignores the full decade of grassroots civil rights activism that preceded it. If the Freedom Riders and other militant activists hadn’t lit the fire, we might not have seen a Civil Rights Act until the 70s or 80s.

Yeah, like I said - a century after the first efforts at reparations.

Show me the Feds’ sterling record of fighting for Black civil rights between 1865 and 1957 and I’ll consider ceding the point.

But were there originally objections to reparations for Jews on the grounds that they’d just ask for more further down the line?

Amadou Diallo wasn’t a descendant of slaves, but he suffered the same consequences of racism as a Black whose ancestors came over on that first Dutch slave ship in 1618.

I don’t think it will be anywhere near enough, either, but it calls attention to the fact that there are still injustices in this country that need to be addressed.

245

It will take until tonight before I can get to my sources, but basically, while slavery in Africa existed for years (much as in the rest of the world), the nature of African slavery was drastically changed with the coming of the European and Arab slave traders.

Initially, African slaves were taken in small raids, bonded to a family, and used as personal servants (or village servants). Those groups did not have large plantations on which to expend a huge labor force and the number of slaves in each village was usually much smaller than the local population. (This is similar to the slavery that existed among the North American natives such as the Natchez and Iroquois, with similar economies.) With the coming of the outsiders, a market was created for large numbers of slaves. Once one has sold one’s own five or twelve slaves and one’s obnoxious brother-in-law, the supply begins to dry up. Even if a chieftain sold his whole village (and was not then carted off, himself), he would then have no slaves to sell to the next merchant (and no one among whom to spend his wealth). In order to find sufficient numbers of people to be enslaved, wars were begun on neighboring and then more distant groups, finally becoming expeditions to bring in enough people to satisfy the market.

246

No they are not. Racism in the US stems from its use to justify slavery and it cannot be divorced from its origins. Slavery may be abolished, but without it racism could not have gained the foothold it did in the US. The demand for reparations for slavery is a logical and necessary part of the greater fight to combat racism.

247

Exactly. He suffered from racist behavior today. The response to that should be actions today to help those who are harmed today, not some arbitrary action to provide money to people based on whether their ancestors were harmed, regardless of whether they actually suffer, today.

Reparations will do nothing to change the NYPD and create more justice in that city for all people, it will simply pass some money through the hands of a broad spectrum of people who do or do not need the assistance while ignoring many people who do need the assistance, based solely on an accident of birth.

248

Yes, as did Europe in World War II. Perhaps the US is one of the most powerful nations in the world solely or primarially because of slavery. Does that mean Europe should pay reparations for being the beneficiary of American aid during WWII?

Also, to tomndebb and others:

While the what-if game over the course of hundreds of years is a fun one to play, I really don’t think we can use it to come to any valid, or at least any accepted answer to this problem. I don’t see how anyone can say with any degree of certainty what would be happening now without European colonialization or the slave trade. There are so many factors it’s mind-boggling to even begin to speculate. I mean, in 1949, was Nineteen Eighty-Four all that unplausable? While historical speculation is a lot of fun and can be very informative in some situations, in the context of this debate it smacks of mental masturbation.

249

Re-reading my post, and having not completely delved into this thread, I do want to put a disclaimer on my last sentence. It sounds a bit condescending and borders on a personal insult, and I’d like to say that I didn’t mean it that way and apologize ahead of time.

250

Effectively, there is a “statute of limitations” (although there is no explicit statute) on reparations. Reparations are paid to the living for specific pain inflicted on them.

The Japanese detainees and the Shoah survivors are the actual people who were harmed.*

The Irish have never attempted to gain reparations for the depredations of British rulers from Cromwell down to the idiot that refused to acknowledge the potato famine.
The Greeks have never sought reparations from the Turks.
The Moors and Spaniards have never sought reparations from each other.
To this date (which could change if the slavery reparations concept takes hold) the Indians have chosen to go to the courts to seek enforcement of broken treaties rather than demanding reparations.

*(There were grumblings about both reparations, BTW, although most of the grumbling regarding Jewish survivors occurred in Europe where the money was sought and most of the grumbling about the Nissei and Issei came from odd sources (with twisted logic) complaining that the Japanese did not give reparations for the Bataan Death march and similar issues that attempted to equate the detained Americans with the Japanese people.)

251

Those sufferings are linked, tomndebb. As I’ve said several times before in this thread, the enslavement of Blacks provided the fertile soil for racism to grow and thrive. And the argument that reparations are wrong because some Blacks don’t suffer the consequences of racism today is nonsensical.

252

A point I, myself, made in an earlier post.

However, when someone posts that back Americans are “better off” for having had their ancestors enslaved or that slavery did not hurt Africa or that colonialism did not hurt Africa, it is incumbent on us to point out how slavery and colonialism did hurt Africa and how assuming that things would be just as they are if one or the other had not happened is a poor assumption.

253

Yes. And? The problem with your logic is that it assumes that taking one action, now, actually addresses the current issue. It does not. Giving Michael Jackson $50,000 will not help the next Amadou Diallo. It won’t even help the first one (who could not receive any benefits from the current proposal as he was an immigrant, not a descendant of slaves in the U.S.).

Sure, slavery is part and parcel of the whole historical problem of race relations in the U.S. However, it does not actually address the problem. It is a feel-good gesture that will cause more harm than good while doing nothing for the current problems. The money spent on creating reparations would be better spent directly on the issues of poverty and racism.

An apology? Sure. That would be nice. (Since such an apology would almost certainly be perceived as politically motivated, I suspect that it would be brushed off by most people unless Jesse Helms was prompted to get up and deliver a heartfelt apology of his own from the Senate floor.)

Wasting the time and money to figure out how much money to take from whom and to give to whom with all the bad will that would accompany it is a waste of that money and time. You keep dismissing Krauthammer, but I can guarantee that if reparations are handed out, a very large segment of the public will declare “we gave 'em the money, now let them shut up” and there will be no chance to pass legislation promoting justice for decades, perhaps for generations.

254

I am the descendant of Irish immigrants sold as slaves in the mid 1700’s. They did not come here willingly and remained in servitude for many years. My ancestral grandfather gained his freedom by serving in the revoultionary war. I would like some money when the reparation checks start coming.

If it hadn’t been legal to own slaves then he would have been paid, right?
Let’s see, min.wage x 40 hrs./wk. + overtime + holidays x 20 yrs. + accrued interest x 225 years = $1,000000000000000000000.00

Hell, just cut me a check for a million bucks and I’ll be happy!

.:rolleyes:

P.S. My gggrandmother on my mother’s side was Indian, let’s go there next.

255

Grendel72

“I’m talking about justice, not vengeance.
You and I both benefitted from the legacy of slavery. Yes, we have had to work for what we’ve got, but we’ve gotten what we worked for, unlike some others.”

But you see, reparations ARE about nothing except vengeance. The fact that reparations are inherently unworkable except in the broadest possible sense (tax all whites and distribute the money to all blacks) MAKES it about nothing but vengeance. Justice would be singling out specifically those people who DIRECTLY benefited from slavery and taxing them, then distributing the money to those people who could PROVE that they were harmed today from something that happened 200 years ago.

Which can’t be done.

256

Without slavery, there’d be no racism in the U.S.? You’ve got to be kidding. That, or you have a higher opinion of your fellow man that history indicates you should have.

Racism isn’t predicated on skin color – look at what the Jews have suffered throughout the ages.

I think at this point you’re proposing something that just cannot be quantified, and it’s been my experience that trying to shoehorn something that cannot be quantified into a monetary equation just doesn’t work.

257

Let’s look at racism.

The term racism gets bandied about in this issue and is used too lightly for my taste.

On the one side you have people who will use the term racist as a personal attack to belittle someone for disagreeing with their agenda.

On the other hand you have to be careful to not sound racist in your disagreement for fear that people will stop listening to you because you’re a “racist”

We’re perpetuating racism right here in this very thread. We’ve divided ourselves along racial lines over this very issue.

Those of us against reparations are “denying that racism exists or had anything to do with slavery”. and well yes, I am denying that racism has anything to do with slavery. Slavery was a symptom of racism not the cause. You cannot blame slavery for racism, but you can blame racism for slavery. If slavery is the cause of racism in this country then how come Mexicans are discriminated against? How come Indians are discriminated against? Arabs, Jews, Chinese, Japanese? How come they are discriminated against? This is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

I won’t even address reparations made to the Japanese internees or the Jews because it appears that people are ignoring the fact that the actual victims are still alive. If you want to ignore that it’s fine, but I’m not going to argue with that illogic.

The reason this issue is divisive is because it divides people into two camps. The black people who are affected by slavery, which appears to encompass EVERY black person as Amadou Diallo seems to be the poster boy even though he was not affected by slavery in this country through ancestry. So this is an issue for ALL black people. Then there is the other side, white America who apparently has some kind of success that was brought about on the backs of slaves, so we’re seperating them into a seperate class, despite the fact that there are millions of white Americans in an impoverished state who don’t appear to be benefitting at all.

The way it appears to me is that the side who WANTS reparations is made up of 100% racists. And the side that doesn’t want reparations while made up of some racists, is trying to point out the logical inconsistencies of racial equality while singling out groups upon racial lines. So please, if you disagree with this define racism for me. Because I am tired of being called a racist because I don’t think you deserve any reparations based upon what white people who weren’t even my ancestors did to your ancestors, just because I am white. So how is it that I am the racist and not you?

Let’s deal with racism in the here and now, and not 150 years ago.

Erek

258

Yes we’re divided, because in this country “white” live in one reality and people of color live in another. The OJ Simpson case is a prime example. Unfortunately if you’re white, you cannot become a person of color to understand or see the difference, but people of color that I know and myself as well see it every day. If I had a bad experience and you didn’t, how are you going to able to empathize with me, to understand why I feel a particular way or think a particular way? How many people of color do you know? It seems that a large majority of them have a story of racism to tell, of benefit of the doubt not given.

To me and others that have posted here, racism is a key component to pulling off the institution of slavery, followed by discrimination that’s still practiced today. Look at all of the propaganda of how people of color were somehow less than human. Once you’ve categorized a person as less than human you have now set the stage to act in an inhumane way toward that person. Clearly slavery was inhumane, and the people were bought, sold, and worked like animals, because the mindset was that they were animals.

As for the other groups you mentioned, it’s easy to pick up another other and add it to your list, once you’ve done it with one based solely on the color of their skin.

Think you’re unbiased? Take a look at this site

To me, this a mere nit pick in a country where a person is awarded millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on them.

The list of poster boys and girls is very, very long, but hey that’s probably not a part of your reality. Every white person benefits from racism whether they know it or not, because it’s all about the assumptions that are made when you have a white person and you have a black person and you have to make a value judgment on who is better, smatter, more honest, whatever.

If they were racist, they would have the power to take the reparations, and we know nothing is given away without a struggle.

I agree, start with your own house or should I say your own head.

259

:smack:

NOT. AGAIN!!!

260

Utter crap. Poor whites who hail from Appalachia are discriminated against more and face bigger hurdles in life than middle-class blacks every have or will. And that’s a stone cold fact. It’s an uncomfortable one for people who want to divide everything along a white/black knife edge, but it’s a fact nevertheless.

I grew up in rural Northeast Ohio, at least once my parents were divorced. I spent all of junior high and high school there, in any case. My schools were underfunded, and the curriculum was without a doubt the least advanced in the county. There were no advanced placement courses, there was little care given to students with special needs, the number of graduates going on to college was less than one-third of the class, materials were severely outdated, etc. And the school was 100% white.

The schools in the communities on either side of ours were well-funded, had much better curricula, better extracurriculars, more students, had advanced placement opportunities, and sent more graduates to college. And both had mixed student bodies.

Care to explain that one in terms of black/white? You can’t, because it had nothing to do with race and everything to do with social class. Perry, before the CEI nuclear plant went online, was a tiny little community almost entirely dependent on farming. Painesville, on the other hand, is the county seat and had a much more well-to-do populace (relatively speaking), and Madison benefitted from a large retail district, some light industry, and better Interstate highway access, thus a better per-capita income.