Garcon! A nice Chablis for my friend pld s’il vous plait!
Now how am I a racist asshole? You know, calling someone a racist is NOT a good way to defend your idiotic statements. They just make you look more stupid.
Just to get this straight, you think memoralizling slavery is wrong unless the oppression of other groups is memoralized too?
That’s a pretty wacked argument. That’s like saying the Vietnam Memorial is unfair because there isn’t a memorial to the Gulf War. That’s like saying the memorial to the fire fighters of 9/11 is unfair because there isn’t a memorial to the stock brokers of 9/11. That’s like saying President’s Day is unfair because it only honors two presidents, not all of them.
Something needn’t be 100% inclusive to be appropriate or justified. Specific events call for specific ways of remembering.
If you want a memorial, lobby for one. I’m sure people will sign petitions for a Poor Whites Monument. But don’t call a memorial for another group of people “unfair” just because you don’t see one for your group. It’s called whining.
Let me give you a little perspective. I don’t need to know what happened to poor whites to know that slavery was HORRIBLE. Just like I needn’t look at poor Germans to know that the Holocaust was horrible. Just like I needn’t look at what happens in Israel to know that what happened here on 9/11/02 was HORRIBLE. Some things stand alone. The horror of slavery is one of them.
But then again, I’m not the one discounting what happened to a group. I’m not saying anything positive or negative about poor whites. YOU are the one that’s repeatedly belittled the impact of slavery. So who needs the historical perspective?
When did I say it happened to me, jerkwad? When? See, it doesn’t have to happen to ME in order for it to evoke feelings of empathy and sadness. Folks like grendel understand this. Obviously you don’t.
And this matters how? It doesn’t matter that Africans sold other Africans into the slave trade. Africans weren’t the ones shipping them across the murderous route of the Atlantic. Africans weren’t the ones treating them like animals. Africans weren’t the ones who kept them enslaved for hundreds of years. Africans didn’t keep black American slaves uneducated and brainwashed. Africans didn’t invent the word “nigger”. Africans didn’t invent Jim Crow or Black Codes. Africans didn’t live in America, land of the free and home of the brave.
Black Americans aren’t Africans. They are Americans. Why don’t you understand this!?
(And since you seem to understand the Holocaust so much, prior to the Holocaust, most Jews in Germany thought of themselves as proud, patriotic Germans. So I bet they were shocked when other Germans ended up locking them up in concentration camps and slaughtering them by the millions. Does the fact that Germans did this to other Germans mean that the Holocaust was any less horrible? Does the horror change simply because oppressor and oppressed belong to the same nationality?)
You’re an idiot.
Millions?
Cite? If so many millions of white slaves were used in the US, what happened to them? And please realize that I’m not talking about indentured servitude, which I recognize as different than chattel slavery used almost exclusively on black slaves.
But I’d like to reiterate just because you seem to be a little slow. If the descendents of white slaves have a case against the federal government for reparations, they should feel free to go after them right along with the descendents of black slaves. No one is going to get anything, but they should be able to go through the motions if they feel like it. I don’t see why you’re seeing this thing through the lenses of white and black, special and non-special, oppressed and more oppressed.
I want you to explain why you don’t think I’m looking at the whole picture.
And I want you to explain why you think I hate white people or justify hatred against them before you call me a racist asshole again.
I expect I won’t get an explanation for either question, though.
Squish, I hope this isn’t in response to me because then I’ll be forced to conclude you’re just as much an idiot as Lonesome.
Thank you for acknowledging that.
I personally think we’ve gotten far afield from why reparations are a bad idea (myself included).
Why I think reparations are a bad idea:
- There are blacks who are descended from black slave-owners, blacks who came to the US (usually from the Carribean) as freedmen, blacks who came to the US after slavery was abolished. Should these blacks get reparations for slavery when they were not slaves in the US? I don’t think so, and I doubt anyone would say they should.
- Would blacks with white ancestors receive reparations, and if so, would it be a percentage based on a percentage of their black blood? How would we determine this?
- Would whites whose ancestors arrived in the US after slavery was abolished be taxed for reparations? Isn’t this unjust?
Now, now–he didn’t say that. Minor quibble: Africans were sold into slavery by the other African chieftains who had captured them.
This argument makes no sense to me. Whites aren’t the only ones who would pay reparations. EVERYONE who pays taxes would be paying reparations. Including the descendants of slaves.
And we paid reparations to the interned Japanese Americans back in 1992. I’m sure most of us weren’t even alive when they were interned. Were there cries of injustice then?
This is a question of logistics, which I personally agree with. That is, if individual pay-outs are being sought. Not all pro-reparations people are in support of individual pay-outs. Some are proposing institutional grants that are targeted specifically to black Americans, regardless of their “purity”.
Another question of logistics. If individual pay-outs are being sought, then it becomes imperative that individuals in the suit be able to prove not only ancestry to a slave, but demonstrate damage or suffering. I think many people would be able to prove that at least one ancestors was a slave, but would this be enough to receive reparation? Would it matter when this slave ancestor was born? Would it matter where this slave lived? And how would you be able to link present-day problems that something that happened more than a century ago. Perhaps if you were a historian you could do it, but most folks aren’t historians.
African immigrants wouldn’t be eligible for reparations, it seems. And it seems to me that the descendents of Carib/Latin American slaves would also be ineligible. But it becomes awfully difficult to decide what to do if someone is a mixture of one of these and black American.
That’s why I think the logistics of reparations make the movement a waste of time.
This is what 'Uigi said:
How, exactly, is that any different than my paraphrase?
’Uigi is obviously one of those bigots who wants to blame the victims.
Then what’s the point? Taxing descendants of slaves to give reparations to descendants of slaves? WTF? And I still think it’s unjust to tax the “Ellis Island children” whose ancestors weren’t here.
That’s already been shown to be a red herring, several times.
Since there are already scholarships targeted specifically to black Americans, what other institutional grants are you suggesting?
grendel, OK, I see your point.
And I don’t agree that it’s one. The case with the interned Japanese Americans demonstrates that “my ancestors weren’t there” is not a logical argument against reparations. If you call yourself an American, you take responsibility for everything done in America’s name. You can’t opt yourself out when you see fit.
The same point as a tax refund, Squish. What was the point of all the those checks Dubya cut for us last summer?
I’m not suggesting anything, since I’m not an activist for slave reparations. But IIRC, I believe some ideas that have bounced around are grants that would rebuild/revitalize inner cities, provide opportunities for educational advancement, programs for entrepeneurs and small businesses, etc.
Even with UNCF, there are tons of bright people who can’t afford to go to school. So perhaps an educational fund wouldn’t be a bad idea.
LonesomePoleCat:
No, it was just one of the most important events in modern-day world history. Perhaps in your insular part of the universe, the US isn’t included with the rest of the world, but it is in everyone else’s. In other words, what ever credibility you might have had in this thread was basically fucked to pieces by that golden nugget of intelligence you let slip out, Lonesome.
Since when did the Jewish holocaust become the standard upon which we measure all other crimes against humanity? Simply because American slavery was a beast bearing only passing resemblence to the beast that was the Holocaust does not lessen the evil that made it what it was. I could sit up here and say American slavery was worse than what happened to the Jews in WWII because the latter was shorter-lived, was less widespread, and wreaked less havoc to a people’s culture, self-esteem, and identity, but I won’t play that tired, foolish game (like so many people want to do). We can spend all day nursing our own biased criteria as to what counts as heinous, but doing that will get us nowhere. At the end of the day, all shit stinks.
I would chose to be a Germanic Jew in the 1940’s no more than I would chose to be a black person in the 1840’s. And that’s all that really matters to me.
Are you still in elementary school? Just curious.
monstro:
Apparently that’s his favorite thing to do, monstro. He rather bitch and moan about poor whites throughout a thread devoted to slavery rather than make his own thread about it, and how much work does that take?
I don’t agree. Upon numerous occasions, I’ve told people, “I love my country. I don’t love my government.” Just because horrible things happen in the country where I live does not mean I’m personally responsible for them; why should I personally be punished for them?
Some of those “tons of bright people” are white, too–or didn’t you know that? (Hijack: can you imagine the name-calling that would result from the establishment of a UWCF?)
If the government has gotten its hands dirty and has to pay for it, how else do you think amends will be made? Where do you think it gets money from? Pluto? The government is an entity for the people, by the people. If it screws up (or has screwed up), we all pay for it. That’s part of the burden of being a citizen and there’s no way of getting around that, unless you move.
Slave population in 1860 - 3,950,528 (United States Census)
Slave “families” - 3,950,528 / 5.28 (average family size in 1860) = 748,206
40 acres of farmland in North Carolina, without improvements = $500,000 (rough estimate, considering information found on various real estate Web sites)
Broken adult mule ~14-16 hands = $2,000 (various Web sites)
$502,000 x 748,206 = $375,599,412,000
Black population of united States in 2000 - 36,419,434 (United States Census). Assume 90% with slave descendants = 35,477,490
375,599,412,000 / 35,477,490 = $10,586,98 reparation payments to individual African-Americans with slave ancestry.
10.6K. Here’s what can be done with that money.
Buy a four year old Honda Accord.
Renovate a bathroom.
Buy three mid-end home theater systems.
Build a pool.
Pay for one year of college - tuition, room and board, without any special race-based scholarships.
Take a three week family vacation to Australia.
Buy 8 Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers from a good dog breeder.
Down payment for a $100,000 house.
$10,586,98 for each black man, woman and child “affected” by slavery. That’s supposed to make it all better. The country will be healed. Future generations of blacks will collectively enjoy the same standard of living as middle class, working professional whites, Asians … and blacks. No more “kill whitey” rap music, no more nasty glares when I visit a good baebecue joint, no more accusations of “racism” for every perceived slight, no more affirmative action or preferences in hiring or scholarships. Racism will disappear … well, at least towards blacks. Black-on-black crime will drop to the same levels as white-on-white crime. Neighborhoods will integrate, babies will no longer be named “Eczema” or “LaVagina,” and the great racial divide will finally be filled in.
Sounds like a good deal. :rolleyes:
.monstro "Millions?
Cite? If so many millions of white slaves were used in the US, what happened to them? "
I don’t think this is an accurate quote on your part.
I was doing a little research on the dollar figures regarding our little rant. Does anybody have any accurate figures? I mean, something besides a guess. Sorry Elmwood, don’t mean to 2nd guess your figures. But, I was reading a report that claimed the reparations suit was for 1.4 trillion dollars to be distributed among 35 million descendants. A whopping $40/person and that’s before the lawyers get their cut.
Seems like a lot of bullshit to make a bunch of lawyers rich!
Yea, yea, I know CITE !!!
I’ll get it and be right back…
Good post, elmwood–just one thing:
That’s at current prices; it was undoubtedly much, much less in 1865.
So if the US should become indepted to another country (it may be, for all I know), you won’t pay your taxes because you personally don’t owe anyone?
What a bullshit argument.
Of course I know this. And I don’t see why able-bodied, strong-willed people like yourself don’t spend more time lobbying for money for all the poor whites who need a helping hand. Again–for the umpteenth time–the efforts of one group should not be condemned just because they’re focused on a specific group of people and not everyone. If you want federal subsidies for a UWCF, go to Congress and make your case! Nothing is stopping you except your desire to whine!
Just sit down for a moment and think (I know it’s hard for you to think rather than fulminate) about all the evil the US Government has done over the last, say, fifty years. You’re telling me that you feel personally responsible for that?
It’s not a desire to whine, it’s a need to fight racism.
I found myself thinking about monstro as I was eating dinner at B. Smith’s restaurant in New York tonight. (a sign that I spend too much time on this board.) I actually met Barbara Smith right after her first restaurant opened many years ago. She was going from table to table, checking to get reaction from the patrons. Now, she’s an enormous success in restaurants and in media.
When she opened that first restaurant near Times Square, it was a somewhat special achievement for an African-American woman. That was many years ago. Opportunities are far greater today.
I find myself bothered by the focus on slavery. Similarly, as a Jew, I don’t like the focus on the Holocost. Both are ways of claiming victim status. I have not appreciated the debate in this thread, comparing which of our ancestors were the greater victims.
The fact is, we live in a world today of enormous opportunity. Let’s forget about victimhood and focus on what we can each accomplish. That’s more useful for each of us and it’s healthier for society.
december:
Having a presumably adult discussion about a major feature of American history does not automatically mean the flag of victimhood has to be raised and saluted to. It’s annoying that we can’t talk about these kinds of things without people equating recognition of actrocities with wallowing in self-pity and stubbornly holding on to past injustices. So you’re tired of people talking about it. But what are we supposed to do? Pretend that nothing happened? Pretend that our history doesn’t have a direct connection with the present? If someone says something ignorant, how is one supposed to counter it, except by pointing out how they are wrong? Is it not important that people–simply because they don’t want to believe or accept that fucked up things happened to another group of people–distort history to fit their own comfort level? It’s important to me, and so silence is not always an option. Sorry if it bothers you.
I am a black woman. When I state that I am a descendant of slaves, it is not to generate sympathy or pity; it is simply so that others can get a sense of my perspective. Nothing more. It is not to make you think that I’m a victim or someone who wants to get Whitey’s money. Because I don’t want it.
And the only people who started comparing the Jewish holocaust with American slavery (outside of the debate on reparations) were those who wished to discount the ugliness of slavery. Which is sad and foolish, if you think about it.
You didn’t answer my question, Squish. Whenever you pay taxes, are you taking care of personal debts or are you fulfilling your responsibility as an American citizen? It seems like you–not me–is the one who isn’t thinking.
My point–which obviously went right over your head–is that I don’t feel personal responsibility for things the government does or has done.
But I call myself an American. I reap the benefits of being an American. Should I not also pay when the government screws up?
How else is the government supposed to fix problems if its citizens cry, “I didn’t do it!” at every turn. Do you realize how stupid this argument sounds?
When I hear you bring up the plight of poor whites when I speak about black Americans–as if one group has anything to do with the other–I can only conclude that you’re whining. Fighting racism is not the first thing that comes to mind.
In a thread about slave reparations, it would seem appropriate to talk about slavery, no?
Perhaps you meant in general. But I don’t see there being a heavy focus on slavery in general. It’s not a taboo subject nowadays, which I think is a good thing, but it’s not something that we get beaten over the heads with either. Even if it was, so what? It was an important part of American history. And I think–based on the misconceptions swarming in this thread–its probably a good thing to talk about it.
No, not unless you want to view it that way.
(I think it’s funny you aren’t commenting on all the poor-whites-are-victims-too posts. Playing the victim card is something that’s hardly isolated to the descendents of slavery and the Holocaust survivors. This thread is proof of that.)
I hope you aren’t implying that I have done this. Because it was LonesomePolecat–not me–who made a comparison between the Holocaust and slavery, citing the former as genocide but the latter as simply “not good”. I don’t get sucked into “more oppressed than thou” debates because they’re pointless. But I get angry when people spew lies just because they’re trying to prove a point that has no bearing on the issue anyway.
It has forced me to defend something that I don’t even believe in and I hate that.
Monstro, please be more careful when you attribute quotes: the last two quotes in your post were from december, not me.
I’ve answered your question to the best of my ability. Frankly, the idea of reparations for something that was legal at the time (which is quite unlike the incarceration of Japanese-Americans during WWII), and that happened nearly 150 years ago is just as silly as Irish-Americans demanding reparations from the English, or me demanding reparations from the Mongol Horde. I’ve raised perfectly valid objections, however, in your racism, all you can see is “whining whites.”
you with the face, you said:
Unfortunately, in this thread and the other one on reparations, I feel that many people are discarding the perspective of the “Ellis Island children.” Everybody, at one time or another in history, has suffered. Everybody. Why is one people’s suffering rated higher than another’s?
William Raspberry’s column in today’s *Washington Post * neatly summarizes many posters’ chief objections to reparations (Raspberry is black by the way):