How do you say “Bite me” in Dutch? 
Not if other white (and black) folk actually make an effort to argue with them as to why reparations should be supported, and why they should actively involve themselves in the fight for those reparations.
According to this site, racial antisemitism (which the Nazi espoused, as opposed to religious or economic) began back in the late 19th century.
The Aish Hatorah report on “Why the Jews” states that studies were done in 1911 on whether or not a “Jewish nose” exists.
Both of these events are clearly before the concentration camps opened.
Zev Steinhardt
Hmmm. I guess you have a lot more faith in people than I do, Olentzero.
Oh, and that would be “Zak in de stront”, for example.
Meaning: “submerge in shit”. Heh.
Tell ya what, tovarish, the next time you’re in da 'Burgh, let me know, and we’ll go out and get something to eat. You pay for dinner, I’ll pay for dessert.
Then we’re even for that whole Franco-Prussian war thingy.
Deal?
Thanks, was quite interesting.
I’m in the same boat. I’ve got the Polish part that needs reparations from the German part, the Slavic part wants them from the Turkish part. And don’t even get me started on the Gypsy part … I think i should hire a lawyer to defend myself from myself.
If we’re going to calculate reparations, let’s calculate them correctly.
Damages (apart from punitive damages) are usually calculated based on the harm suffered by an individual. The idea is to put the victim back in the position he or she would have been had the injury not occurred.
Per the U.S. census, the median household income for Black families in the U.S. is about $30,500. The average income per household member is about $15,000.
These people are only here because their ancestors were kidnapped from Africa and enslaved. Their descendants would otherwise, have grown up in West Africa. The average annual per capita income in Senegal, one of the more prosperous West African countries, is $1600.
So, that means that every U.S. citizen descended from slaves ought to be entitled to, err, nothing at all. It seems, at least in economic terms, that the biggest beneficiaries of the slave trade alive today are the descendants of slaves.
This all goes to demonstrate the utter silliness of the entire idea of reparations. Yes, slavery was, and is, a horrific thing. But it does not follow that the descendants of slaves are either morally or legally entitled to compensation for injuries that occurred almost 150 years ago. If you ask me, we’d be way ahead of the game if we could address the problems we have now.
By the way, Olentzero, there is no monolithic reparations movement. It’s simply wrong to suggest that some people aren’t arguing for direct government payments like those that were paid to the Japanese-American internees. Here’s a somewhat more, ahh, extreme take on the reparations issue.
One reason I would oppose the paying of reparations is that we don’t know where it would end. If we paid reparations today to every individual whose ancestors had been enslaved in this country, would that ensure that their children, their grandchildren, etc., would not also think THEY were entitled to payments?
Olentzero:
I had a really good post earlier that was lost when I had to attend to some more pressing stuff, so I’m sorry I won’t address your points as eloquently as I might have before.
First of all, labelling me as a racist based upon your observations in this thread is a little bit inappropriate. I am generally against the culture of victimization, regardless of whatever form it takes.
As I was going to ask, does the statute of limitations apply to this sort of thing? What about the idea that you can’t be sued or prosecuted for breaking a law that was written after you took the action that broke it.
I believe in acting on the problems of today, not the problems of yesterday. Focus on fixing the problems. The roots are always going to be there regardless. But perhaps we can keep the weed from growing, rather than planting more seeds of hate by taking money from every American and giving it to Black Americans descended from slaves.
Another question I have is why do people who believe in reparations insist on adding 150 years to the duration of african slavery on this continent? 1619 - 1865 is 246 years. So why does everyone keep quoting 400 years? What’s that all about? Is that some implication that it is still occurring? I’ve seen too many people say it for it to be just a general error.
Modern day racism is a problem, but as I said in my OP perhaps joining together with all other races in a similar situation to yours would do more to end racism than asking for reparations. I don’t have any stats on this, but I’d be willing to bet there are more white people living in poverty than there are black people in poverty. However conversely, I realize that in levels of percentages there are a higher percentage of affluent white people than there are affluent black people, but that’s changing rapidly. There are a lot of very wealthy black people out there these days.
As far as the Black slaves suffering more from this country, I’d have to argue with you on that. I’d say that Aboriginal Americans suffered quite a bit more than Black slaves. History is a long story of people fucking each other over, and eventually the victims have to give accept that and work to better themselves in the here and now, or else they can live as second class citizens complaining about it and asking for feel good measures to be passed.
Erek
This is so fucking crazy. That BBC article is pretty extreme. I wonder what would happen if they got a counter offer saying we’d consider reparations if they first came up with the money to pack back all the slave traders that bought slaves from Africans in Africa.
Erek
I don’t get it. I just don’t get it.
First a little background on me. I am from a Caribbean nation where slavery existed until after it was abolished in the US. Even when there is discrimination on the basis of races in this country I wouldn’t go too far and call it racism, mostly because it is of another sort of that which exists in Europe and mostly in the US. Nobody, has EVER been killed here for being of a certain race. People just kill people for a variety of reasons, none has to do with race. I come from a mixed-race family (whatever that is). Dad is white, mom, like me is of mixed.
My country, as a whole, has been at one time or another invaded or controlled by a number of nations, the US included. The latest times the US marines paid us a visit was in 1965. Even when it was in fairly recent times my country has grown over it. The past is the past.
I cannot claim to understand the struggle of the black people of the US. I cannot understand what they go through. But I have the feeling (and so does a lot of people from outside the US) that there is a lot of self-inflicted victimization in it. Past the obligatory joke of “I am half black, half white. Do I write a check to myself?” I have no words to explain how utterly silly I think the whole issue of “reparation” is. I think it would be a lot healthier to just come to terms with the past and move on. But again, there might be some twist to the whole thing that I am missing. I’ll hang around and see if I get the point I think I am missing.
My 0.33 cents (of Pesos that is)
Back to the OP.
In modern times that is. Sorry for the brain hiccup :rolleyes:
Interestingly, there are several members of the political Right in the U.S. who are supporting reparations (notably, Charles Krauthammer).
In my (perhaps cynical, but I believe accurate) summary of their position, they say, “Sure. Give them the reparations. Every black household in the U.S. will receive $x0,000 and they can spend it however they need to. Then we can kill all the civil rights legislation, affirmative action, and outreach programs and tell them to shut up and get on with their lives.” Of course, while that money would be a genuine boon to most middle class blacks and a few poor blacks, Krauthammer and company carefully (I believe deliberately) ignore that the majority of the truly poor blacks, hamstrung by the failure of our educational systems, will lose that money through bad investments and scams. But, Hey! they got their money; they have to go away and quit bugging us.
Reparations are unworkable at so many levels and the support of such people as Krauthammer should be a wake-up call to the advocates of reparations. If we want a more just society, we need to address the inequities in the current society, not dream up feel-good gestures that are both expensive and counter-productive.
So what exactly happened to James Byrd and Amadou Diallo?
Sorry, I had somehow missed that you weren’t talking about the US.
I still think you’re terribly wrong to claim
People don’t want to be discriminated against.
Grendel: I disagree with you completely. Lot’s of people want to believe they are a victim, it takes away the onus of personal responsibility. It makes their problems “external” I know a lot of very successful black people, people who are very together and who can be very formidable and even intimidating at times. These are people who don’t blaim everyone else for their problems, they found solutions to them, through ingenuity and self-examination. On the other hand you have scores living in the ghetto smoking pot all day and blaming “the Man”. A friend of mine has a Philosophy Degree from the University of Louisiana and he said his peers from HS in LA make fun of him for it.
That said, I forget who James Byrd is, but Amadou Diallou was a black man who was unarmed, was tagged for arrest by an undercover, and when he resisted thinking it was some kind of scam was shot to death here in New York City about two years ago. I think that’s the right case. Either that or he’s the immigrant who was shot 41 times by police officers when he reached into his back pocket to get his wallet to present identification. Anyway, there are so many cases of this type in New York that I lose count. This is definitely something that needs to be addressed. Too bad they fall on the back burner while every kvetches about reparations. Or else people will go through a perfectly cogent argument about the societal ills brought upon by slavery upon black America and then suddenly mention Amadou Diallo out of left field as though it is so obvious that an issue that has nothing to do with slavery is a direct result of slavery.
Erek
If you read her post, you’ll see that she wasn’t referring to the US, but to an unnamed country in the Caribbean.
and the award for the most useless post in the thread goes to occ!
Erek
Thank you, Coldfire, for qualifying your statement.
It seems to me that there are two arguments. One is “These business profited by immoral activities that injured my ancestors.” I saw no evidence of this argument in the article cited in the OP. However, if that is the argument, then one can only claim they’re suing for damaged done to a deceased relative. The companies were not the cause of slavery or racial injustice, their actions and operations took place in a pre-existing condition of immoral behavior. They can not be held accountable for creating or perpetuating that situation. Thus the argument that todays racial issues stem directly from slavery are not applicable to a lawsuit brough against corporations that may or may not have profited from the institution of slavery.
The argument that “African Americans are owed reparations because the institution of slavery is the direct cause of todays racial division and injustices, and has kept Blacks in a separate and inequal status from 1865 until today” is the position that I read in the article. So they are seeking reparations from those who perpetuated the institution of slavery; namely the government of the United States. However, our government is representative of all current citizens. Taking money from the government is equivalent to taking money from all citizens of the country today, be they white or black, regardless of where or how their ancestors came to this country. It does nothing to address the injustices committed on the long dead by the long dead. It is not justice.
Malcolm X said we (present tense) inherited this debt in much the same way as some one inherits the debt of their father. Well, we inherited the institution of slavery from our days of colonial government under another culture. The United States government has been working these past 150 years to right the wrong we inherited. Yet, that fact is ignored. For 150 years now this country has fought to eradicate the bigotry and hatred it inherited from another culture, yet those efforts are conveniently forgotten. We have made huge progress towards racial equality, and we struggle towards it daily. Do problems still exist? I can’t deny they do, but look at the scale. Whites have fought along side blacks in every-growing numbers to help create a society that is blind to race. When will those efforts be recognized? Why must it always be about the slaveholders that existed in 1850?
For those who don’t believe it’s devisive, look at the language of the article itself:
Who is to be punished?
Black vs. white…
Ahh, now we are two nations…more black vs white. Personally, I don’t want to be lumped in with [color] America. I’d rather just be American. Why can’t we all just get along?
How many white people are denying ‘the truth of [their] existence’? All? Some? Does it matter? Will anyone count? Or is it simpler to leave it a question of white versus black, based purely on race? But, wasn’t that what we wanted to avoid?
Indeed. One has only to read this article to understand why.