Dammit, mswas, that coffee was too hot! MacDonald’s was knowingly keeping the coffee much hotter than average to sell inferior coffee. I wish that story would just die already.
End Hijack. Sorry.
Oh, and reparations are wrong. It would do a little (a very little) to corect the problem of racism against a certain group (descendents of African slaves in the US), while other discriminated groups (Asians, Latinos, descendents of recent African immigrants, Native Americans, and poor whites) would be injured to the inevitable social and political backlash (why do we need welfare? We just gave all the blacks so much money. Besides, we can’t afford it anymore anyway).
Coldfire -
Sure it is possible for a solution to come about. My point was more that I don’t beleive that because the president is black he will clear the issue. I don’t believe in reparations but do wish for the issue to see some closure.
FTR, racism is a bigger problem. However, a really bad attempt to resolve some issues of surrounding racism–especially one that will not actually solve any problems–does not become valid simply because it attempts to address the larger of two problems.
OK, what’s bad about it? The limitations of the results? That makes no sense. So reparations won’t end racism. The Compromise of 1850 didn’t end slavery, either, but it was a step in the right direction. The Boston Massacre didn’t make the British colonies in North America an independent political entity, but it showed the colonists that independence and the fight to gain it was becoming more and more necessary. Just because you can’t cross the finish line on the first step is no reason not to run the marathon.
While it was only blacks that were enslaved, the consequences of slavery and of the racism used to justify it affect everyone of all colors even today. I’ve illustrated how racism could grow and spread given the socioeconomic situation of the postwar South. I’ve also shown how attempts at actual reparations during Reconstruction were ultimately quashed (the ‘40 acres and a mule’ efforts in my reply to Tars Tarkas). The result was the creation of an impoverished, landless Black population that would take any work they could get for whatever wages they could get. This not only affected the South but the North as well, as Blacks migrated into the industrial cities. Bosses and corporations thus had more leverage to keep wages down, since they could fire the white workers and hire cheaper Black labor if things got too out of hand. And this situation continues today, with the disproportionate impoverishment of Blacks in the inner cities, providing a continuous source of cheap labor (alongside immigrants and poor whites) that exerts a downward pressure on wages.
If slavery and its consequences affect everybody, then any fights around redressing grievances stemming therefrom ought to involve everybody as well (which I see a lot of those opposed to reparations would support). There is nothing about the reparations movement that inherently excludes whites and Latinos. Any Black organizations with a proper perspective on the matter should actively campaign for the support of and involvement by other sections of the working population in their efforts to win reparations. And many of them are.
I have a problem with the term “African American”.
I personally know of only one TRUE African American. She’s a white Jewish woman who was born in Port Elizabeth S.A., and is now a citizen of the United States.
I’d be for reparations only if the people that received them then reimbursed the government for the cost of waging the Civil War. Oh yea, and anyone who had relatives that died and/or lost limbs on the Union side would also be entitled to a chunk of the earnings. For chrissake people, any ‘sin’ associated with slavery was washed clean by the blood of tens of thousands of overwhelmingly white soldiers who died for the Union. Hell, if you want to get all Biblical about it, the US even torched a good chunk of the Confederacy and killed a sizable portion of its men for good measure. Nobody owes anyone any damn blood money from the Civil freakin’ War. Get over it.
I think that if a white president proposed the same thing it would be about equal.
In my mind, focusing funds on inner city infrastructure, education, cultural integration and public relations would be the perfect reparation remedy and consequently would move the country closer to better race relations. I also believe that when these actions are taken, it’s made clear that it is in fact reparations for past wrongs to segments of the population. Whites or other peoepl of color have nothing to fear if they are poor and live in an impoverished community they will also benefit. The only complaints will probably come from those that already have, which one would have to wonder why in the hell that is.
Shit, they weren’t fighting on the behalf of black people, they were fighting because of a power struggle. It would have been an entirely different thing if the south was fighting an all black army of the north, but then again this would be a different country right now if that had happened.
Um, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the scenario that some people tried to claim these as deductions, they weren’t caught in time, and they are now in trouble with the law for tax fraud, or something like that?
Guinastasia -
You are right. When people were filing their taxes there were some people out there spreading the word that this tax credit can be claimed. Some people paid to have someone fill out the proper paperwork for the credit.
For the amount of claims that went through I am guessing their are some innocent people who were not aware this was fraud. Now all that money needs to be paid back and some with penalties.
Sorry that I made it sound as though there were really payments made instead of what really happened.
Hmm, you’ve gone from “Reparations for Slavery” (specific payment for specific event) to a “reparations movement” in which any group any where at any time can come forth and make some claim against some other group (or the U.S. government) to be “made right” for various past deeds. I’m sure that you will support the great grandchildren of slave owners for the property (that they legally held) that was taken from them, right? This implies that we actually can make the world fair–a point I’m not willing to concede at any level–and it also implies that there is some ultimate group upon whom we can make these claims (otherwise we will simply sit in a big circle and pass cash back and forth forever until everyone is satisfied that they got theirs–which, of course, will never happen).
First, focus your intent:
Are we paying people recompense for pain and suffering that they did not experience? Why?
Are we providing restitution for things they may have lost? (Be careful how you answer that or you will have to deal with the nonsense that Truth Seeker borrowed from David Horowitz.)
Are we providing them a leg up to get to out of poverty? Are you then going to deny Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson and Diana Ross and tens of thousands of bankers and engineers any recovery? On what grounds? And if you are going to pay them, what happens to your claim that you are helping them get out of poverty?
Now, who do we pay? Everyone who can document that they had a slave ancestor in the U.S.? Everyone who can document that they had a slave ancestor anywhere in the world susbequent to 1776 or 1789? Everyone who “looks black” (including recent Jamaican or Kenyan immigrants)? (So what do we do about the people in the South who were re-registered from white to colored in the 1920s and 1930s because they had one black great-grandparent (who may have been a freedman)? Does it matter how many generations of ancestors were slaves? Does a person whose great-grandparent was smuggled into the U.S. in 1860 get the same amount of money as someone whose more distant ancestor was a bonded servant in 1663 who was then turned into a slave against his or her expectations by a chnge in the Virginia law? Do we give reparations to the descendants of the few thousand black slave-holders from Louisiana or the few hundred from the rest of the South? Do we give money equally to “pure” bloods and mixed race people? On what basis?
You may say that these are “details” that can be worked out. I say that putting money within reach of people will make these details very significant issues.
If you truly want to correct the problems that racism has caused, then we need to address the ways in which it still harms people, today. Going back and trying to pretend that there is money out there that is “owed” to people by people who had no part in the decision to create that obligation will not actually produce the money or help the people who need it.
Good show, Olentzero! I can see it now! “Ok, everybody, listen up! The line for whites claiming reparations for equal opportunity employment forms on the left. The line for whites claiming reparations for affirmative action in education forms on the right.”
After all, but for slavery, these people wouldn’t be here to take “my” job or “my” place at university. I, I’m a victim of slavery!
Does all this remind anyone of Reagan claiming that German soldiers “were victims, just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps?” Victimhood is obviously a growth industry.
So anyway, who ought to be receiving these reparations? We’ve established that it isn’t the descendants of slaves. They’ve actually done quite well out of the deal. The only people/organizations around that are actually true victims of slavery are those whose “ancestors” refused to profit from it when it was legal. I mean, they could have made money on slavery if it hadn’t been against their principles so it is only fair that they be compensated. Why should they lose out for taking this courageous stand?
It follows that massive reparations ought to be paid to a) northern states and b) Quakers.
Tomndebb, Of course it’s nonsense (though I didn’t know David Horowitz had made this point – I can’t say that I closely follow this “issue” any more than I keep up to date on the latest crop circle research). The whole idea of reparations is nonsense. Apart from the fact that reparations in the U.S. would almost certainly violate the U.S. constitution, there is also no moral basis for them.
The idea that a particular descendant of slaves living in North America has not actually been economically harmed by the enslavement of their ancestors is not silly, merely cold-blooded. As ugly and divisive as it is, this is precisely the kind of analysis you have to get into if you want to seriously discuss reparations.
Yeah, Truth Seeker, I was not trying to claim that you held those views, but simply pointing out where they would be found in the thread. There is a counterargument to the “they’re better off anyway” perspective, but trotting that out actually gives more weight to the whole discussion that I think is warranted.
There have to be better ways to rectify injustice than setting up pecking orders of “most hurt” while we damage the economy by playing “Who pays?” games.
Bricker, I think it is mightily nice to have someone here with at least an “acquired” relation with my half of floating rock.
However, your comparison is not adequate and not relevant to the subject matter. Of course I would love to discuss in depth the situation that you describe and that (maybe you don’t know) is not entirely related to rascims. NOBODY (citizen or foreigner) in my country (in recent years) has been killed over racial matters. But unfortunately this is not the site and the thread to discuss this. If you like, email me and I’ll direct you to a more appropriate forum for such matters.
In the meantime, I stand by my original position that I find the idea of reparation utterly ridiculous. Virtually everybody (nation, group) was an opressor at one time in history and it is silly to pretend to cash out on our remote ancestor’s misfortune. Of course, YMMV, but that is how many people from outside the US see it. But then, they can just go ahead and do whatever they feel like with their country. We, from the outside, we’ll take the Jay Leno’s approach.
Here’s an article in today’s Washington Post about a pro-reparations demonstration to be held tomorrow in fron of the Capitol. I found two quotes illuminating:
No black American today was a slave, and no white American today has ever owned slaves, yet these people talk as though the issue were current–one a resentful slave and the other an apologetic slavemaster.
How long will this last? Will our remote descendants in 2502 still be hashing out the legacy of slavery? Will the black Mars colonists be demanding 40 acres and a targ?
Problem with reparations is that its’ just the same old system of “payback” that continues a cycle of agression. Go back far enough in history and someone is always getting fucked over by the other guy, either as a group or as an individual.
I’m fairly certain that at some point in history my ancestors have killed someone else here’s ancestors and vice versa. So fucking what? It aint great, but it it how it works. Now there are people who support fucking over more folks to get back at people who have been dead since forever? Where does it end? Someone mentioned Egypt paying Jews, well I think that one is a bit off historically (exaggerated at least) it does express the point. All of you owe me for something and I owe all of you for something, if you want to claim folks are responsible for the actions of ancestors, so lets just call it a cats game and move on. Fair?
Christ some folks act like the world is supposed to be fair or some shit. No one said anyone gets a fair deal here, you get to try as hard as you want to improve your own lot and you get to answer to your own concience and either way its still a crapshoot. End of story so quit yer bitchin’ and teach a kid how to make a kite out of string, balsa wood and newspaper if you really want to make a difference.
