Anyone know why it’s called a ‘no-no’?
No hits, no runs.
Interesting. So if a pitcher allowed no hits, but allowed four consecutive walks it couldn’t be called a no-no, right? I wonder if that’s ever happened.
Actually, you can give up as many runs as you like (and even lose the game) and still pitch a no-hitter. A pitcher is credited with a no-hitter as long as he meets the following criteria:
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Pitches at least nine innings (sub-9 inning no-hitters [such as Melido Perez’s against the Yankees] used to count, but no longer do).
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The pitcher must pitch the entire game. (If the game goes beyond nine innings and a relief pitcher finishes the tenth, he does not get credit for a no hitter [although he may be included in a combined no hitter if the subsequent relief pitchers do not give up hits]).
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The pitcher does not give up any hits. Harvey Haddix of the Pirates threw 12 innings of no-hit ball (in fact, he was pitching a perfect game) against the Braves in 1959, but lost in the 13th on an error, (intentional) walk, and a homer that turned into a double because one runner passed another on the basepaths. Haddix does not have credit for a no-hitter.
Zev Steinhardt
Yeah, I just meant that the term ‘no-no’ wouldn’t apply, even though it would still be a no hitter.
That ‘must pitch the whole game’ criteria really sucks. How about back in '95 when Pedro Martinez had a perfect game going into the tenth, and Bip Roberts blooped a double to ruin it? Oh, the agony…
But the famous “Committee No-Hitee” still stands, right? On September 28, 1975, Vida Blue, Glenn Abbott, Paul Lindblad, and Rollie Fingers threw a combined no-hitter which wasn’t matched again until 1991. I think Blue still gets a career no-hitter credit for that game even though he only pitched five innings. Bob Milacki, who pitched six innings in a similar feat in 1991, doesn’t seem to get the same credit, so I assume the “rules” were changed somewhere in between 1975 and 1991.
Blue does not have credit for a no hitter in that case. The A’s do (as a team) and Blue can be said to have pitched in a combined no-hitter. But he, himself, does not have credit for that.
The rules were changed retroactively. Perez had a no-hitter when he pitched it. It was taken away later when the rules were changed.
Zev Steinhardt
Didn’t Babe Ruth throw a “perfect game” in relief? As I recall the story, the starter walked the first man and was ejected from the game. Babe came in from the bullpen and retired everybody else in order.
Nope. Ruth started the game.
Ruth walked the first batter. He was so upset with the call that he hit the umpire. That, of course, got him thrown out of the game.
Ernie Shore came on in relief. The runner was caught stealing and Shore retired the next 26 batters. At the time, he was credited with a perfect game.
The same decision that took away the other no hitters also took away Shore’s “perfect game.” He does, however, get credit for a shutout.
Zev Steinhardt
thanks, Zev. Are there any other cases where a pitcher put the first man on, then came back and retired the rest in order?
There was a game in the late 1980s between Oakland and New York where the first batter for Oakland (Carney Lansford) lined a shot off of Yankee pitcher Al Leiter, which forced him out of the game.
Neil Allen came in to relieve and shut out Oakland the rest of the way.
I think the most recent case of a no-hitter where a run was scored happened in September 1993, when the late Darryl Kile, then with the Astros, threw one against the Mets.
In the fourth inning, Jeff McKnight walked with one out. After retiring Eddie Murray, Kile appeared to hit Joe Orsulak (wow, memories…) on a 1-2 pitch. The ball bounced away from the catcher, Scott Servais, who didn’t go after it. He thought the ball hit the batter, and thus nobody would advance. So McKnight ran to second and kept going. Jeff Bagwell got the ball, made a bad throw to third, and McKnight scored. The run was unearned. Kile, who had been pitching a perfect game until that walk, sent the last 17 Mets (Murray included) down in order.
Has a pitcher ever thrown a no-hitter and lost the game at the same time?
I’d say it’s possible.
Scenario, using the 2003 Royals:
Michael Tucker walks, then after a wild pitch to Randa, Tucker steals second, Randa lines off to right field and Tucker moves to third. Beltran comes up and hits it to the first baseman, and Tucker scores. That’s the only run and the Royals win 1-0 despite being the victims of a no-hitter.
Has this happened?
It’s possible, yes. I’m not aware of it happening; perhaps Zev can say for sure? In an earlier post, he specifically mentions the possibility, but doesn’t say it’s ever occurred.
Yes, pitchers have gotten credit for no-hitters but lost the game.
I don’t have the specifics in front of me now, but I know it has happened several times.
Zev Steinhardt
OK. Ken Johnson (Hou) lost a 1-0 decision on 4/23/1964, despite pitching a no-hitter.
Mark Gardner pitched 10 no-hit innings on 7/26/1991, but lost the game 1-0.
Zev Steinhardt
Zev - you’re a godsend! I just had a huge debate about this with a co-worker in Thursday. Do you have a cite handy for those three points you made earlier, so that I can collect on my, uh, disaggreement?
Mark Gardner gave up hits in the 10th innings, so he is not credited with a no-hitter. He gave up singles to Lenny Harris and Eddie Murray to lead off the 10th. He was then pulled for Jeff Fassero, who gave up a game-ending single to Darryl Strawberry.
Two days later, Dennis Martinez took no chances and threw a perfect game against the Dodgers.
You can find all these boxscores at http://www.retrosheet.org
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/yr1991a.shtml
Do a search in the page for “no-hit.” This addresses point #1. #3 should be obvious. #2 is sort of a grey area and is my understanding of the rule, but I’ll be the first to admit that I could be wrong on the matter.
Zev Steinhardt