In that case I disagree with you. I’d say that apart from a core minority, most of them aren’t. And I only mentioned social networking sites to illustrate that this wasn’t some sort of spontaneous popular uprising - people were organising themselves on Blackberrys and Twitter specifically in order to smash things up and steal.
So you wouldn’t be in favour of these rioters receiving custodial sentences for robbery, arson, criminal damage and theft?
Are you saying democracy doesn’t work and that the only way to deal with a government you’re unhappy with is through wanton destruction, violence and theft?
In seriousness, no.
But I think you are massively underestimating the level of disillusionment with the political system, that is viewed by a significant proportion as existing solely for the protection of existing power and privilege.
Then blow up Old Bailey, not a rug shop.
I’m not sure how those two things are contradictory. We’ve been hearing for years about spontaneous popular uprisings organised via smartphones and social networking sites in Iran, Egypt and Syria, for example. The government contexts are clearly different, but how do Twitter and Blackberries “illustrate that this wasn’t some sort of spontaneous popular uprising”?
I’ve already expressed my feelings on punitive sentencing and won’t be continuing this aspect of the conversation any more.
Agreed.
When your house is on fire, you don’t argue, why its on fire, you put the fire out. The riots have to stop, the police (and if necessary the military) need to restore order first. THEN you can discuss the underlying causes all you want.
On the birchings and hangings issue, I would not shed a tear if the bastards involved were birched and hanged; have it coming.
Then let’s change the political system! If people are so dissatisfied, let’s change it to make it work for us rather than just those at the top.
March, shout, yell, scream, organise rallies, organise your community to make them aware of the issues, yell at your MP and demand to know why he hasn’t fixed X, Y and Z. There’s nothing on earth except complacency that’s stopping us from making this country the way we want it to be. Rioting and looting and burning is the *easy *way - the coward’s way. Making real and legitimate changes without smashing anything or killing anyone - that’s the hard part.
Well, I was disillusioned with the political system all through Blair and Brown’s spell, but I wasn’t heaving any half-bricks through shop windows. But now as in the 1980s, Labour make themselves unelectable and the riot-apologists are spilling out of the woodwork before you can say knife.
I dunno. But I assume you think the solution is getting a criminal record that will ensure you never get a job. And/or growing up on an estate even better known for being a shithole, due to the riots, than it was before so that you ensure you are seen as a probable troublemaker for all your youth, even if you didn’t riot.
People have been doing that. It hasn’t been working.
To clarify, I don’t at all think the looting and burning has been a conscious attempt at political expression, but: people have been doing that. It hasn’t been working.
Yep, this is what needs to happen. Oh, and memo to PrettyVacant, being poor isn’t a reason to smash shit up, and being poor isn’t caused by the government. I guess from your username you’re a wannabe punk with no real understanding of anything, so I’ll let you off your ignorance this once, but kindly stop shitting in my thread by defending the rioters.
You’re missing the point of the disillusionment. The idea is that it cannot be changed. That marching, shouting, yelling, screaming etc won’t do anything, that protest gets co-opted.
I don’t hold to that view, but to deny it is there is burying one’s head in the sand. As is denying there is historically a very good reason it is there.
There’s a place for direct action, and always has been in the UK. Sadly this seems to be misplaced direct action.
Actually one only has to envisage an extremely small percentage of arsonists and vandals to explain the number of fires etc. There are probably hundreds or thousands of guys standing around for every guy that comes forward to start the smashing or burning. And not only that but an event like this would draw arsonists and vandals like moths to a flame.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… if they were not sociopaths, they would possess enough empathy to recognise that inflicting suffering on innocent bystanders is a bad thing.
Splendid. We’re all agreed then for this hypothesis.
So, onto the next part of the exercise:
“Now, if we’re producing that number of sociopaths as a society, don’t you think we’ve got some serious underlying problems to address?”
Ok they’re not necessarily contradictory, but the difference in government contexts is all-important here. These aren’t brave young Egyptians or Syrians who are organising through Facebook in order to make a noble stand against a dictatorial regime that would have them shot, these are opportunistic people sending out tweets to call for crime and saying stuff like “get over here and blag sum free stuff!” and “If you see a brother, salute! If you see a Fed, shoot!”
Fair enough - sounds like your issue is with our entire criminal justice system, but what I was trying to pin you down on is whether you think these rioters should get away scott-free for their crimes.
New Labour is a very significant part of the current disillusionment. And I would ask what it is you think I have said that makes me a riot-apologist.
Income and wealth inequality sure is, and lack of access to education (thanks for raising those university fees!) and cutting jobs rather than growing them. Poverty is caused by government. Sorry to break it to you.
I still don’t see what social networking has to do with anything.
Perhaps it just isn’t working yet. I think the next election will be a pretty good opportunity for people to make the changes they want.
Quite often it is, or aided and abetted by the government.
Or they can be angry enough not to care, or they can believe that those bystanders aren’t innocent, or just be caught up in mob mentality. People in mobs have always been notorious for acting in ways much worse than they normally would; no need to assume that they are all thugs and sociopaths.