Oh, does Israel have affirmative action laws that unfairly discriminate against Jewish Israelis? That the trap you were trying to set?
Except we’ve already established that Israeli Law of Return classifies the children of Jewish fathers and gentile mothers as Jews or for that matter even the grandchild of a Paternal grandparent.
As was already mentioned Israel Law of Return was based far more on the the Nuremberg laws than Jewish tradition. They believed strongly that anyone Hitler would have killed should have a safe haven in Israel.
You’re joking sort of, I know, but Israel does have preferential hiring for Arabs and Ethiopians in civil service positions, and Israeli labor law bans discrimination in hiring, and it does have scholarships and programs to help Arab students go to universities.
Nah, I just think he was being cutesy and laying a trap for some wholesome naif to bluster about there not being any US laws that discriminate so he could haul out his affirmative action piety.
I am aware that the position of Palestinians in Israel is not the dire horror some sources make it out to be, but I am also aware it is far from equal and welcoming. I am aware that the Palestinians have legitimate beefs, as do the Israelis. I am aware that on both sides there are men who exploit fear and anger to sustain their importance, so that people listen to them and do what they say.
I am also aware that there are people on both sides who are earnestly looking for a way out, withstanding suspicion and disdain to work for peace, often at great sacrifice. These, I believe, are the people my favorite Jew was talking about, how they are the Children of God, and blessed. But you can’t help but notice that the blessed so often have a very tough row to hoe.
And so it goes.
Israeli Arabs, you mean. Israeli Arabs and Palestinians are different groups of people. I know it seems like I’m nitpicking, but part of the problem with these types of discussions comes when the two groups get lumped together, when as far as the law is concerned and as far as their lives are concerned, they’re really different.
Yes, that’s the rationale. But it is a construct, determined by a power they have no say in. They are the same people, who are forced to live as two different groups, under a different set of laws.
You are not nitpicking; you are denying reality. Why is it so difficult for us to admit that?
Should be easy, a simple explanation of the precise characteristics that distinguish one from the other. A handy field guide to Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, for instance.
What reality is denied here? Israeli citizens of Arabic ethnic descent have the right to vote in Israel. They have a number of members of the Knesset. Israel’s Supreme Court has issued a number of rulings protecting them against (ill-advised!) legislation that would limit their rights.
The inhabitants of the West Bank are not Israeli citizens. They don’t get representation in the Knesset, any more than citizens of Japan got representation in Congress while Japan was governed by the U.S. after 1945.
A solution to the situation is desired by nearly everyone; the problem is that the two major participants insist on absolutely incompatible conditions. So nothing changes.
Thank you for proving my point.
Nothing you’ve said is something I didn’t know, or haven’t heard a million times as a rationale.
And none of it disputes the first 3 sentences of my post, or even addresses it.
If you have something new to say, my mind is open. Otherwise, let’s go back to my previous offer to you and agree to disagree.
“We agree to disagree” does not include “you are denying reality.”
You can’t say both of these. The latter contradicts the former.
What “reality” have I denied, if you accept everything I said as true? If you do not accept what I say as true, specify where I’m wrong.
Or, as this is the Pit…
I don’t believe I’m denying anything. Of course it’s a construct…borders are constructs, governments are constructs. And they’ve stopped being the same people. They were until until 1949 maybe, but the very fact that they were separated by borders changed them and started introducing differences. That’s what borders do.
And the fact is that Arab Israelis and Palestinians are different now. They have different identities, they live under a different set of laws, have different goals, different aspirations, different beliefs, different opportunities, different challenges facing them and different obstacles to overcome.
Of course there are differences on some levels. As within Jews. As within Israeli Jews. Or any other ethnic group. Does that mean they are not the same people, with many things in common? That they don’t identify with each other as the same people?
The citizens of Israel are not really “Israeli Arabs”. They are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. That is how they think of themselves; how they identify when asked. They don’t share citizenship, but they share an identity with other Palestinians whatever their citizenship. They have family and friendship ties. They marry each other (which is a problem if they want to live in Israel, as you know).
The Supreme Court has ruled that no one can be identified as simply an Israeli, not even Jews. And there is a reason for that (whether Terr wants to admit it or not), just as there is a reason why it is convenient to claim that the Palestinians in Israel are “not the same people” as the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and the diaspora.
Your “nitpick” is what I was replying to. IMO, it is denying reality to say it’s a “problem” to think of them as the same people when having a conversation about this. If you can’t accept someone’s identity as legitimate, how can you expect them to accept yours? How can you solve a problem with them if you don’t know them, or see them as they see themselves?
BTW, just so you don’t think I am talking out of my ass based on leftist ideology, my opinion about this is informed by having been there, knowing people there (including family at one point), and knowing many Israeli Jews and Palestinians here in New York. I was in business for over 11 years with an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian, and we are still like family. But I recognize that not every Israeli, Jew, or Palestinian will agree with all my views.
What is informing your opinion, if I may ask?
I’m not talking about ethnic identifiers here. I’m talking about legal status. Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel, and the state of Israel has obligations to them because they’re citizens of Israel. Palestinians are not. The West Bank and Gaza are not part of Israel, and unless or until that day happens, the State of Israel doesn’t have the obligation to treat the people there like Israeli citizens.
I am quite aware of the legal distinction, as I told Trinopus, and acknowledged in my first reply to you. Did you really think that distinction was creating confusion in this discussion before you posted?
Anyway, you were talking about more than legal status:
My emphasis. That is what I was replying to. It’s not the reality. I’ll ask you again: What is informing your opinion?
So what part of my posts are confusing to you (and Trinopus)? I really don’t see how I can be more clear. But neither one of you has addressed what I actually said.
I usually try to avoid this subject; it just set me off to hear you say “Israeli Arabs” and “Palestinians” are really different people, and then Trinopus referring to them as “Israelis of Arabic descent”. It reminds me of the cringe inducing “Our Arabs have it so much better here” that some people still like to trot out.
Are you talking about ethnic similarities? If so, sure, but so what? That doesn’t have any relevance to the questions pertinent to this thread, of rights, citizenship, voting, representation, and the like.
What, exactly, is your point here? Can you make yourself more clear?
“Ethnic similarities”? After all I’ve said, that’s what you come back with?
At what point did you get to decide what was pertinent to this thread? It started out as a thread about antisemitism on the left. Everything since then has been a tangent. Who gets to decide what is relevant, or what questions can be asked, or what points can be made? We had been discussing ethnicity at one point as well as the legalities, if that makes it more pertinent, to your mind.
I bolded the parts of Captain Amazing’s posts I was responding to, and explained my reason, yet again.
What I meant about “denying reality” was “denying the reality that they are the same people; they all identify as Palestinians (well, excepting the Druze).” If you don’t realize that, or don’t think it is important to the discussion, then IMO you don’t know enough about the realities to have an informed opinion. Or, you do know, and are avoiding the significance because it is inconvenient to your POV. That’s my point, subject to debate, if anyone is interested.
Now, if all these explanations are still not clear enough then I’m sorry, but I can’t help you.
OK, let me ask again: is it your premise that non-Jewish residents of Israel enjoy complete equality? And that all stories of oppression and prejudice against them are all a bunch of lies?
And this Facebook page is your evidence?
You are continuing to fail massively in making yourself clear.
What is your actual point here? Can you state it at all clearly?
See above…