No to Marriage?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I’m the most sensitive guy toward women and their issues that you’ll ever meet. My sister is a healthy, happy, and extremely worldy woman who has a wonderful relationship with at least two men. Two of my cousins, Jennifer and Jeanelle, have had a fantastic (and staunchly moral) upbringing, and will no doubt have plenty of boyfriends to choose from.

There is next to no chance that any of us will ever get married.

No shocking reason for it…we’re just not like our parents. There’s no Mr. or Miss right out there for us, and we’re not going to kill ourselves looking for one. We don’t feel any obligation to “carry on the family line” (what, there aren’t enough Wongs in the world yet?) or uphold some vague “tradition” that we never gave a damn about in the first place.

Furthermore, entering a lifelong commitment means taking on obligations that, frankly, we really aren’t cut out for. Look, no woman is important enough to be worth breaking off with every other woman in my life. And while I might get used to the idea of confiding in, sharing my innermost feelings with, and (yes!) sleeping with one person for the rest of my life, it’s my life…do I really want to take that chance? For my sister and nearly all my female cousins; it’s a non-starter. They got lives of their own, and no way in hell are they going to put everything on hold to keep the nest together.

If you ask me, it’s disgusting that people are getting married for health benefits. (Didn’t Tonya Harding hook up with that good-for-nothing slug Jeff Gilooly mainly for that reason?) This is just one of the things that points out the crying need for socialized medicint in this country. But I’m no hijacker, so I’ll save that for another thread…

22

Like many people, Lola makes the mistake of assuming most people in times past died in their 20s and 30s. Not so. Oh, you might read stats like “The median age of death in the middle ages was 35,” but that doesn’t mean many people were dying at 35.

The reason average life expectancy was so much lower in earlier times was that so many babies and children didn’t reach adulthood. But if, say, an 18th century child made it to his 18th birthday, his chances of living to be 70, 75, or 80 (just like average people today) were quite good.

So, it simply isn’t true that, a few centuries back, most marriages only lasted a few years. Assuming a healthy adult male married a helthy adult woman, they could expect to be together a loooong time.

23

Sorry for the hijack, but I’m intensely curious about this. I still don’t understand why she can’t marry. And if this is too personal of a subject to address, just please refer to me as an uncouth wench and ignore it.

24

Well, I can’t get married either. My SO and I are same sex partners and “marriage” wouldn’t be legally recognized in most places.

I can’t speak for Eve though. Her circumstances may be different.

But, for the record. My SO and I both think that miarriage is icky! I cannot imagine that we’d ever get married if it became legal or otherwise have any kind of commitment ceremony.

25

throatshot, click on the words “eve was born adam” in belladonna’s post. all will be revealed.

26

Ah, I finally found it. I’d started that thread before when it first came out, but I didn’t stick with it.

27

Just idle curiosity, and it is what the OP was asking, too. Can you explain why you don’t agree with the history, traditions, or underlying premise of the institution?
(not picking a fight or anything, just curious)

28

Hmm… looks like I’m in the minority here because I like the traditional idea of marriage, and I might be getting some flak for this. But this is the “humble opinion” board, so I’ll post my humble opinion.

This is a pet peeve of mine. People who live together and have kids that are afraid of commitment. If it’s just a triffling little piece of paper, why is it so much trouble to sign it? If you still want to be known as only “girlfriend and boyfriend” when you’ve had two kids and lived together for 10 years, fine with me. But don’t be too upset when I consider you two to be a bunch of immature commitment phobes.

29

Assuming you mean that you want me to elaborate…

• marriage assumes monogamy and fidelity as obligatory promises. I’m pretty much a one-person at a time kind of guy but it isn’t an obligation and I would resent being pressured to promise it. I have zero interest in having it promised to me either.

• as Lenore Weitzman points out, marriage is a legally binding contract, one of the few (perhaps the only one) in which you are bound to terms that you don’t get to examine or read. I don’t mean the “sickness and in health, better or for worse”, etc stuff – that isn’t legally binding – but the set of laws that the state legally regards as applicable to you once you are married. Many of these have been modified or thrown out over the years, but historically these laws delineated an arrangement in which your obligations were officially different if you were female than if you were male. In short, a patriarchal arrangement of the ugliest sort.

• culturally, marriage is the conventional heterosexual couples’ arrangement. I think that when you get married, you get a much more intense imposition and projection of other people’s notions of who you are to each other (and who you, collectively, are to the world at large) than you do as an unmarried couple. To me, the relationship thrives on being undefined, on always discovering itself the way it did when we first met, when we weren’t “anything” to each other yet but we were attracted and interested. Oh, and to be sure, I really hate the content of what most people impose on married people, in addition to hating the imposed-definitions thing in the first place. Weddings in particular depress the hell out of me. Prepackaged ritualistic overly structured ceremonies that are for everyone else more than for the couple, and which can tend to leave the couple feeling controlled and trivialized.

• another underlying premise of the institution is that it makes love “safe” – you aren’t gonna get your heart broken by being left by the other person because they aren’t allowed to leave, so it is “safe”. (Divorce – the right to leave – was historically unavailable or difficult to obtain. Even now it is messy and complicated and expensive). Some proponents of marriage have said that it should be harder to get out of a marriage. Me, I think love dies when you try to make it “safe” that way. I don’t want a lady on a chain, or a bird with clipped wings in a cage. I love a free woman who at any moment might decide she doesn’t want me in her life any more, which makes it mean something every split second when she reaffirms that she wants to be with me.

• I don’t get the jealousy / possessiveness thing at all. In fact, I’ve said some mean and insulting things on the board here that offended folks for whom fidelity and faithfulness and so forth are important. To me it’s just plain alien, like discovering that 94% of everyone alive likes to stuff unwashed cabbage leaves into their ears or something. If I came home one evening and found my girlfriend in bed with one or more other people, I’d wave and apologize for interrupting and come back later. I would not assume it meant she didn’t love me or was any more likely to leave me. I tend to think of marriage as a branding-iron thing: you’re officially MINE and NO ONE ELSE CAN HAVE YOU.

30

Marriage isn’t for everybody, that’s a fact. But on the other hand, don’t dip into to frosting if you’re not willing to finish the whole cake!!:stuck_out_tongue:

As for how long people used to live–WRONG! Statistically the lower life expectancy age 200 years ago was mostly due to childbirth related deaths and battles. Though there were diseases that people had no immunity for, many people lived into their 70s, 80s, and 90s. I’m not sure what cemetary Lola lived near, but check out the really old ones in New England or over in Europe. That gives you a more realistic and accurate picture. :rolleyes:

Divorce, dissertion, separation existed even 200 years ago. The difference today is there is a larger population and more people do the same things as long ago, just more often!! :confused:

For the many of us who chose marriage and have been successful at making the relationship work, I can tell you it is the best way to salvage the family structure! It takes two people who are commited to each other and the effort to the union.

Commitment is not something that many want to enter into these days. That’s because it takes time, patience, understanding, integrity, faith, hard work etc, etc. Get the picture. In today’s society where everything has to be fast, instant, noncommital, and always pleasureable, some don’t want to work that hard. To some, trust is not an option. What you get in return from a shack-up relationship is: messed up kids, abuse, idiots, STDs, broken hearts, and death.

The only reason some would chose license renewal is because their vows, their word, their integrity means nothing to them or anyone else. Who would want to promise for a lifetime under that condition? Maybe they don’t value themselves as much as they should?

As to marriage being obsolete–I don’t think so. Some of us are more driven to a better way of life than the alternatives offered!
I’d rather put the risk and work into caring, loving, crying, sharing, and share the pride in succeeding at one of life’s most fulfilling relationships. :smiley:

31

I’m still making my mind up about marriage (there are, after all, legal advantages under certain circumstances), but I plan to say no to most of the trappings and customs that accompany it, particularly the whole engagement / wedding circus. Does that count?

32

I wouldn’t actively avoid marriage or domestic partnership (for me, excluding the piece of a paper, a good domestic partnership equals a good marriage). I’ve never had the chance of having a SO, either, so my view may change as time passes.

Some people equate marriage with weddings and commitments…blagh! Marriage is much more than that (better or worse), and a good marriage doesn’t need a wedding or engagement.

Just from personal experiences, in my family fancy weddings have resulted in divorce, plain weddings in long-lasting marriages, and good weddings in good marriages also. The marriage depended on the people, not the wedding.

Marriage was, and in some places is, patriarchal. It doesn’t have to be that way. People must make their own arrangements in their relationship. There should not be one strict way to make and maintain marriages.

33

Calm down, Granny.

This is the cemetary I lived close to:

I still stand behind my belief that marriage is an outdated institution which, when first implemented, was done more out of necessity than desire.

IMHO, of course.

Carry on.

:cool:

34

I’m neither fer it or agin it, but I do want to make a comment on AHunter3’s fidelity/monogamy point:

I love my boyfriend very much. We have a great sex life. He cheated on me once and it upset me so much to think that 1) he was doing with someone else what he does with me, and 2) that he was risking passing on an STD to me.

Yeah, it’s jealousy: I want to be special to the man I consider special.

35

“Immature commitment phobes?” Sorry, but I totally disagree. Your example shows two people who most defintely ARE committed. If marriage means nothing to them, then whether or not they sign the “trifling piece of paper” is irrelevent.

Analogy: Say I am an atheist, I am to be sworn in as a witness in court. They ask me to swear on the Bible. The Bible means nothing to me. I fully intend to tell the truth, the whole turth and nothing but the truth. My inentions to tell the truth are not at all diminished because I refuse to swear on the Bible. Your argument would be “if it’s just a trifling book than why is it so much trouble to swear on it?”

A union based on absolute faith that my partner WANTS to be with me means far more to me than any marriage contract ever could. Quite simply, marriage means nothing to me. I fully intend to be with my partner until the day I die. If it ever becomes legal for us to marry, we still won’t because it’s based on legal and religious conventions that mean nothing to us.

“Committment phobes” is simply inaccurate.

36

Ok. But why can’t you stop by the local courthouse, pick up a marriage license, and sign it?

Then why are you afraid of adding one more symbol to your commitment?

Why does it mean nothing to you? Is there a reason you are so strongly against these social conventions?

37

Suit yourself, but I definitely wouldn’t want to enter a lifelong relationship with a member of the opposite sex who refused to marry me. I’ll try to imagine a conversation between us…

Me: So, we’ve been dating for 4 years. Why don’t we get married?

Her: Because it’s an outdated social tradition. Who cares about the law and society?

Me: Screw the law and society. But do you want us to be together forever?

Her: Yes.

Me: Will you say this in front of witnesses, and sign a piece of paper to this effect?

Her: No.

At this point I’d get awfully suspicious, just like I’d be suspicious of a business person who says he’ll sell me the Broklyn Bridge, but won’t sign a contract saying so and gets upset that I won’t accept his oral promise.

38

I was married over a year ago. I honestly believe a marriage is what you make it. Some work, others don’t. Same with relationships.

Getting married was not a big deal for me. My SO wanted to, and I wasn’t strongly pro or anti, so we did it. For those who think a wedding is all about dressing up in a poofy dress and spending lots of money, think again. A wedding is just like a marriage, it can be whatever you make of it. I was married on a clifftop with 15 family members observing, listening to a celebrant repeat words we’d written earlier. Everything was exactly right for us, and didn’t resemble the $25 000 wedding a friend had had in the local church a couple of months earlier. Mr Goo wanted to announce his love and commitment to me, and wanted to do so publically. I was happy with that, but both of us viewed it as ‘just a piece of paper’. We knew that what makes a relationship is the day-to-day humdrum of how you treat each other. A ring or a piece of paper makes no difference, IMHO, and we would be just as happy and just as committed if we never married.

YMMV, but I don’t see what the big deal is. Marry if you want, don’t if you don’t. I wish marriage was more open to others (i.e, same-sex couples) because I simply haven’t yet come across a reason that appeared good to me to exclude them. I can’t stand the smug attitude I see amongst some married people, who are convinced that they are more committed and more ‘in-love’ than a couple without the intention to marry.

A relationship is what you make of it. IMHO, a marriage changes nothing.

39

Practically - because gay marriages aren’t legal in Canada or the U.S. But aside from that, a marriage licence means nothing to me personally as far as our commitment. Our commitment is independent of whether or not we are licenced or regognized by the state. I love my SO, and I don’t need a contract to prove it. It is not s symbol of our relationship.

There is no fear about symbols to our commitment, but that particular symbol means nothing to us. Example again/ the symbol of the cross would mean little to an atheist, though an atheist may respect what it means to other people.

I am not strongly against the conventions at all. If my friends get married and are happy to do so, then I am happy for them. But marriage is not a choice I would make for myself, simply because it doesn’t mean anything to me for various reasons. Using the example of religion again: Let’s say I am an atheist. I am not “against” Holy Communion, but it wouldn’t be appropriate for me as a non-Catholic, to go and receive communion.

The symbol of marriage, it quite simply a symbol that means nothing to me personally for various reasons that are difficult to specify. In part, it has to do with its history in north american law and religion. I don’t care if the government recognizes our union or not. I don’t care if the church regonizes our union or not. I am not “against” marriage", I’m utterly indifferent to it. If it means nothing to me, I’d no sooner sign a marriage certificate than I would swear an oath on the New Testament if I was Muslim.

My SO is the same way. Whenever we’ve discussed the issue of vows, commitment ceremonies or rings, we haven’t yet found anything that we feel adequately represents our union. Hate to resort to religion again, but hey, it seems to work: If someone is soul searching, one would hope he would find a faith that truly represents his spiritual beliefs.

Some people feel that a marriage certifiate is the ultimate bond. We quite simply do not. It is not a symbol that has any meaning to us.

I agree with Goo a relationship is what you make of it. Marriage changes nothing.

40

Besides that there are so many other legal contracts that you can enter into as a couple that are binding. When my friends got married I though “oh, that’s nice” but when they bought a house and entered into a contract making them share a $300 000 debt, then I thought “wow, they’re in it forever!”