No transit strike thread?

The BBQ Pit
81

Fuck you, we wouldn’t take them. People up here work, Goddamnit! Those pussies would never survive. I went in to work this morning and temp was -9F. People were talking in hushed tones about the cold weather that is imminent. (The paper and tv news had most of us talking happily of the highs being in the lower 20’s until the weekend.) If they’re freezing their asses of on a day like today in NY or MA, their systems would simply shut down up here. Now, granted, we have plenty of space to bury them, and we can accomadate that. But sending them here when they truly belong there just doesn’t make sense. :stuck_out_tongue:

Now, for a serious question.

A judge today ruled the strike illegal and is fining the MTU $1 million a day. How many MTU (non)-workers are there?

What are the chances of somebody just having the balls to break the union and start over? Aren’t there something like 7-10 million people in th metro area? Seems to be a lot of potential workers available. And seeing the arguments of people with better training and education making less, it seems that the city would have a pretty good pool of candidates to pick from. Plus, they could start salaries/wages lower than present, but would still be a better deal for the new workers.

But that won’t happen. The union mentality and public frothing for defending them in so many cities makes the MTU a virtual lock for winning this one. What happens is, all the non-MTU union workers that rely on public transportation end up defending them in a chorus of brotherhood thinking it will somehow help them by making their union stronger.

Much like politics, it’s not about any individual person’s needs. It’s about getting more and more power. The only reason I still have respect for politicians is that from time to time they fall asleep at the switch and don’t fuck anything up. Unions are just worthless. I can’t think offhand one thing they’ve done that has benefitted anyone but themselves. Even outsourcing can benfit me by allowing me a lower cost product. It sucks for me if it’s my job, but overall it benefits many people.

If I lose my job I can find another one. I’ll even try to justify it knowing that somehow many other people will benefit from it. If some douchebag strikes so he can retire at age fucking 50 and it affects my livelihood? Gloves are off. I swear I’d love to get to NYC the day after the strike ends and start riding busses and puncher drivers in the head until I’m arrested.

By a cop that makes half what the driver is making.

I think that situation would spin me off into a whole new dimension of reality.

82

To compare apples to apples:

Starting Salary for a Subway/Bus operator - $52,644
Starting Salary for a NYPD Police officer - $25,100

To add a bit more perspective, here’s an excerpt from a NY Times op-ed piece (registration required):

Furthermore:

Frankly, that Republican blog didn’t need to resort to any funny stuff with numbers to underscore the ludicrousness of this situation.

83

After talking to my dad, I am even more pissed off. He spent about 6 hours today just getting to and frm work, and that’s only because he lives a 5-minute walk from the LIRR; it would have ben longer otherwise. He has bronchitis and is hacking his lungs up, is past retirement age, could have easily taken either a vacation day or a sick day, and yet he is dedicated enough to come in to work. Some of the union members would do well to emulate that kind of dedication.

Also, I am really annoyed because a large part of my job here in Chicago involves providing support for people in NYC, and I couldn’t get a damn thing done today, including things that are required for compliance with federal legislation. It was frustrating as hell.

84

I really had no opinion of unions and striking until the grocery strike (was it just California?). Anywho, EVERY grocery store in town was a union grocery store (except the really dirty, rat infested FoodMaxx - no really, there are rats) and so, if you wanted to go to a decent store, you had to break the picket lines. I’d screamed at, had stuff thrown at me, and be called all kinds of things from the protestors. Needless to say, they didn’t win over any love from me.

Maybe my fat, lazy, American brain was deprived of decent food for too long due to their goddamn strike (the stores were out of meat, vegetables, etc- we pretty much ate things from boxes and cans for however many months that went on), but I fucking hate this bullshit. Like in California with the, “Oh Noes! They want us to pay a whole $5 a week for HEALTH INSURANCE! Let’s picket!”, this strike is just as silly. How much do the rest of us have to pay for health insurance again? Oh yeah, waaaay more than that.

I take that back, this strike is a million times worse. Hundreds of thousands (er, millions?) of people are out of ways to get to work, to school, to the grocery store, and to the hospital- and all for what?

They want to retire 15 years before most Americans are eligable (but, honestly, what percent of people actually even retire at 65?) and get a rediculously unreasonable pay increase on their already unreasonably high pay.

Sheesh.

85

According to friends in both low and high places, TWU International is already distancing themselves from the Local 100. It appears Toussant’s already shaky hold on his empire is crumbling fast.

86

Not being a NYC resident, I’m not privy to all the finer details regarding the reasons for why the TWU decided to strike. But this thread is truly dumbfounding - I would think that the MTA would share in some of the opproprium being heaped around.

Why is the TWU being singled out as being power hungry and/or greedy, when the MTA could have avoided a showdown by dealing with the TWU honestly and fairly? My understanding is that the MTA does not have the strongest reputation in being as transparent and forthcoming as it could be in its dealings with its employees. Is it not true that the TWU gave up pay raises in the past when the MTA was having financial problems?

Why should the TWU give up hard-earned benefits when the MTA is projecting close to a billion dollar surplus (and had recently implemented price discounts for users)? Why should the TWU cave into the demands to the MTA when the MTA was willing to sell off property at less then fair-market value (to wealthy individuals who wanted to build a stadium/sports complex in Manhatten)?

Why should the TWU accept a two tier system (a raise in the retirement for new employees)? Becaue the police union did as well? I’ve heard that this has actually hurt the city’s in its ability to attract new members to the force. Why would the TWU favor a system that would actually reduce it’s ability to attract new members?

I can understand people being angry at the TWU, but why the lack of outrage towards the MTA? And where’s the mayor and the governor in all of this? If the transit system for the greater NYC is so important and vital, you would think that the MTA, mayor, and governor would have it in their best interests to deal fairly and honestly with the TWU well before something of this magnitude would come to a head.

But I somehow think that it’s more likely that the MTA (and others) decided that is was in their best interest not to do so.

87

You are right that the MTA has plenty of problems of its own. But the assertion that they were not willing to deal with the union honestly and fairly is demonstrably false. The MTA stated repeatedly, publically and in negotations, that they were willing to take the negotiation to a mediator and then binding arbitration (the required process under the Taylor Law). The TWU rejected the process out of hand, even before the negotiating deadline. They were the ones who made outrageous demands, whereas the MTA’s offers were reasonable. They were the ones who rejected the proper negotiating procedure for public employeed. They were the ones who walked away from the negotiating table. They were the ones who went on strike in the middle of the Christmas season and fucked over seven million innocent bystanders.

There is no surplus. The MTA has tens of billions in pension and bond obligations over the next two decades. A one year surplus of one billion means nothing. The holiday fare reductions represent a miniscule fraction of the one billion anyway.

Further, what hard-earned benefits are they being asked to give up? They currently pay nothing for their health insurance. They are being asked to contribute a single percentage point. They currently retire with a half-salary pension at age 55. The MTA wants to raise this to 62, for new employees only. Let us not forget that the rest of the entire fucking country gets to retire at 65, if they’re lucky. The TWU actually had the balls to demand that retirement be lowered to 50 at one point.

Let’s remember that after the public backlash against that little stunt, the MTA held an open bidding process for the property. They still fucked it up and the deal was rejected by the state anyway. But I fail to see what one even has to do with the other. Should the MTA be “punished” by the union because of a corrupt land deal?

They should accept it because the current retirement age of 55 is ludicrous, and human life-expectancy has increased dramatically over the past few decades. The comparison to the police union makes no sense. That’s a job that only attracts people who are willing to risk their lives for a meager living. And the size of the police force has been reduced over the past ten years, while the number of NYCTA employees has increased.

No, I think it’s more likely that you don’t know WTF you’re talking about.

88

eponymous, are you a member of the union? Seriously. Any defense of this strike in my mind can only be offered by one that would benefit from the demands. I’m not accusing you, just saying the defense of it is odd considering how a lot of people are agreeing even with me on the matter.

And I hadn’t even noticed until the last run-through of posts that these people don’t pay a penny towards health insurance?!? I’m happy as shit with my health package, even with my rates going up 1/1 for signing the Affidavit of Second-Class Citizenship. (AKA, declaring I use the dreaded tobacco).

And my base pay is much lower than what they make. And my job requires far more intelligence and training than driving a fucking bus. Of course, bus drivers are good people as well, and they are savvy enough to find a way to make more money than more “qualified” people, but they’re doing the same fucking thing most people do on their way to work. Driving. To work.

Some of the people riding the bus to work are going to a McDonald’s. Some of those are at some level management. They have to work with our computer system that runs everything from scheduling to the cashless system to the automatic drink dispensers to labor cost to inventory to profit and loss projections to profiles to wiring to network connectivity to pricing to upgrades to programming the registers for new menu items to programming how the register can deduct the price of this week’s toy from the cost of a Happy Meal to…well, maybe you get the point.

The system is Unix-based, and God bless them they mostly try to figure it out and adapt. More often than not they can, but many can’t understand the concept that when there’s a network outage, rebooting a register won’t fix it.

They’re idiots. But overall they can figure out the basics. They’re using what they were given to finish their jobs. They are better trained than someone driving a bus. And they get paid far less than the driver taking them to work.
Well, at least they do when the driver actually shows up for fucking work. I think my biggest problem with unions may be the fact they can skip work and then demand a raise. In the real world ot showing up for work gets you fired.

I hate unions and this is the shit that cements it.

89

Seriously, why can’t Pataki fire them all? Reagan did it, Coolidge did it. Is it the way the Taylor Law is written?

90

eponymous,

Any MTA surplus belongs to New York state taxpayers, not Roger Toussaint and his gang of greedy thugs.

After reading up on their irrational demands and amazing current benefits I’ve have even less sympathy for them than I did before this stupid strike.

91

If it is any consolation, I think this may really hurt union sentiment in the long run. I hate unions too so it won’t change my view but plenty of people were on the fence or just ambivalent about them. Hard-core union busting may become more socially acceptable and more of a near-term defense. I am really hoping they are working out a plan to fire them all.

92

Point taken - but I think it’s quite telling that the TWU decided against arbitration. Has the TWU gone to arbitration in the past, and if so, was was the outcome? There must have been some reason for the TWU’s reluctance to want to go to arbitration, no?

Hard-earned in the sense that paying nothing for health insurance is part of what they were able to negotiate in previous contracts. Asking to contribute towards health insurance is a consession on their part. Asking for a 1% contribution may not be unreasonable (which I generally agree), but it’s a concession that the union is being asked to make.

I wasn’t aware that the union was asking for a reduction in the retirement age. My understanding that the retirement age used to be 50, but was raised some time time ago to 55.

And it doesn’t matter whether or not the rest of the country gets to retire at 65. It matters whether the TWU is willing to negotiate their retirement age at 65 or not. If one doesn’t like the fact that one is forced to work until 65 (or later), then maybe it behooves one to belong to an organization that is willing to negotiate for the right to retire at an earlier age.

And should the union be willing to take the MTA’s word at face value when they can’t even manage their own affairs properly? The MTA isn’t being punished by the TWU, unless you think not fully trusting the MTA is punishment. I don’t know all the details here - you tell me if the TWU is being unreasonable in not trusting the MTA fully.

Ludricous in what sense? Because you say so? Yes, live expectancy is has increased dramatically over the past few decades. Does that mean that people should be forced to work physically demanding jobs (and their is a goodly portion of the union jobs in the TWU that are physically demanding) until people are 65? why not 70? 75? Would you be willing to forego your retirement until 70 or 75?

Why doesn’t it make sense? OK - how about comparing it to other unionized jobs in the city? Firefighters? Refuse workers? Nurses? What about transit workers in the outlying suburbs? How does the pay/benefits compare to those of the TWU? Are the wages/benefits/retirement ages comparable, or are they so out of proprotion from other groups?

As I said, I’m not well versed on all the details regarding the strike. But there must be some rationale as to why the TWU was reluctant to go to arbitration with the MTA (bad blood between the two in previous negotiations? lack of trust? A belief by the TWU that the MTA is bent on destroying the union?). So much so that they were willing to go on strike, to the tune of being massively penalized (via fines and the like).

I’m willing to be enlightened on this matter…

93

No you aren’t. If you were, you would have read the rest of the thread.

The question about why the union rejected arbitration out-of-hand is interesting, though. I don’t know what the results have been in previous arbitrations. It would be nice, however, if they had at least given it a shot before committing a mass felony.

On a completely unrelated note, tomorrow I am going to hike about a mile to the Queensboro Bridge and see if I can hitch a ride downtown. Should be an interesting experience at least.

94

What I don’t get in this whole shitstorm is the people who state something similar to the above.

“I’m way more qualified, educated, and a far superior lover than any of these union employees, yet I make $.52 an hour and am flogged every 15 minutes,” I hear them saying. Well, the remedy to that seems apparent to me–become a bus driver.

95

No, but I am a member of a union.

What bothers me is the overwhelming hostility expressed towards unions and union membership. Again, I can understand the anger directed toward the TWU, but not towards the MTA or anyone else? Why are unions soley getting such a bad rap?

So what? They negotiated in good faith in previous contracts that they would not have to pay for health benefits. What’s wrong with that?

Why does how much you make relevant? Should I be able to bitch and whine becaues someone makes more than me, even though they were able to negotiate a better salary? Is that what’s bothering you?

Or is it that fact that they don’t have as much education and training as you do, therfore, by dint of your massive eductional/skill background you somehow deserve a higher wage, (nonewithstanding your inability to negotiate a better salary giving your massive educational/skill background)?

Or is it your utter contempt for working class people to earn a decent wage? After all, they’re only “bus drivers”, “yard workers”, “token takers”, and the like, so it’s not as if they are contributing any value to the community, is it? Any one can do what they do, right?

Really? I guess you should tell me all the ins and outs of driving a bus 8-10 hours a day.

I’m well aware of your contempt for unions. I’m just puzzled as to why the contempt is so ferocious.

96

On preview, this was in response to Shagnasty’s post. Though it’s not directed at him. I was trying to avoid quoting an entire post for relevence and this is what happens. Read his post then take it from there. :slight_smile:

I can only hope so. A union strike (other than those Northwest Airlines fucks) will most likley never directly affect me. Unlike what some may think of me here, I can sympathize with other’s that are affected. But on top of the sympathy, strikes these days just piss me off on principle. If a person has a job, go to fucking work. There is no indentured servitude. If you don’t like your job, find another one. I don’t give a shit if it isn’t something you trained for or went to college for, fucking go to work.

Fuck, the more I think of it, the more pissed I get. Some douchebag goes on strike because his bus-driving benefits are less than the Sultan of Brunai. Because of this, the cops that face the chance of being shot everyday now have to take time from their families during Christmas (an important holiday to Christians, so don’t bother with with the Christian-bashing).

Overtime? OK, they get time and a half. For missing out on an important day for them. Money is more important than family, right?

Of course, the overtime is needed because the guy making more than him is going to retire earlier than him and doesn’t feel like going to work. (This is kind of like that speech Matt Damon gave in Good Will Hunting).

I honestly don’t get the union mentality. What I do get is the public perception of them being the same as the Mafia. They say what will be, and you either give in and pay or suffer the consequences.

Is there a site for this union? When I conclude my 40 hour week (that includes Christmas Day and New Year’s Day, as well as Thanksgiving Day last month as my schedule is Sun-Thurs) I’d love to make a call or two.

And to the union member’s that are playing PR saying they can’t go to work because of the strike, let me tell you this.
You are fucking pussies of the first magnitude. Go to fucking work! If you’re fearful of the union that you’re paying to look out for your best interests will punish, intimidate or hurt you for going to fucking work, wake the fuck up! Do you see now that the union is in it for themselves?

Maybe you’re so blinded by your laminated card listing the official number of the union that takes your money without caring about you personally that you can’t see how missing work is going to hurt you. Maybe you’re so blinded by it that you really don’t give a shit about the millions that depend on you showing up for your job.

Millions depending on you really doesn’t make your job that much more important than anyone else’s. Especially when you factor in the point that all but the dullest of us could perform. You make a shitload of money, get better benefits than many that do more for the common good than you, and can retire at 55.

Anyone saying “Oh, but I do want to go to work, the union says I can’t!” Fuck you. Go to work.

97

Obligatory Simpsons quote:

“Lisa, if you don’t like your job, you don’t strike: you just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That’s the American way.”

98

And the last time that you drove a bus profesionally was . . ? Perhaps if you feel that you are underpaid for your level of expertise and training you should join a union?

These people have a skill and training that not many other people do. They should have a right to benefit from that skill and training. Being able to hold the city hostage just adds to their importance, and their bargaining power.

Their demands may seem greedy and realistic, but that is a part of negotiation.

Sorry some of you have to walk to work. . . maybe next time you will get out and vote for people that will treat these people the way they want to be treated. Working in the public sector should not make a person a wage slave.

And duffer, I’m a member of a union to protect myself from people like you. Go piss up a rope, fuckstick.

99

What part was I unwilling to get? I’m not really trying to be combative - just trying to understand why people feel that the TWU is being unreasonable in not giving up things they had available to them in the past. Do you somehow feel that a union doesn’t have the right to fight to preserve wages/benefits/retirement ages, etc. they have enjoyed in the past?

Possibly, but I think it’s telling that the TWU was so adamant in refusing it. You your self stated that the MTA doesn’t have the most sterling of reputations. There’s a history here that would be most interesting to learn more about.

In all sincerity, keep warm and safe…

100

Oh fuck all that. We’re not talking about brain surgery here. These people drive buses. They clean the fucking subways. They give out metrocards.

Oh what fucking planet does that constitute a job requiring lots of skill . . . let alone skill that other people do not?

Heck there are machines that dispense metrocards and the machines, unlike many token clerks, aren’t rude unhelpful bastards.

And in case you haven’t bothered to do any reading they ARE benefiting. The entry level salary for that whiny assed subway motorman is over 50k a year – a salary much great than their unskilled peers. They get to retire at 55. They don’t pay a single fucking penny for health care.

We should all be such “wage slaves.” :rolleyes:

I have no problem with unions. But this isn’t about labor relations. It’s about blackmail by a group of greedy morons. That’s never acceptable.