Why do you think the TWU is a bunch of “greedy thugs?” Since when did it become “greedy” for people to be able to negotiate a fair contract?
On what basis you conclude that the union’s demands are “irrational?” Because YOU think so? Do you not feel that people have the right to bargain collectively, and that their union representatives do not have the right to fight and preserve gains achieved in previous negotiations? Do you not feel that working class people have the right to earn a decent wage?
The TWU already has a pretty fucking sweet deal in place. The fact they know they can fuck over millions of people going for an even better deal without answering to those they are fucking over negates any notion of even trying to see their point of view.
OK. So the one’s in the union were entitled to that? When it was negotiated? Nobody is calling for those people to give up their rights under the contract. The fact the “unborns” is brought up means the union wants the agreement thrown out. That, by default, means the union wants the previous contract nullified. They want a new contract, they can’t expect the new contract to also in clude arbitrarily what they cherry pick from the old contract. You lost the argument right there. But let’s move on.
When the salary is paid by not only the passengers but by the taxpayers? Yes. When it isn’t? Yes.
When the negotiated salary is retroactive to people that haven’t even clocked in yet?
Well, that’s union-think. Here’s a wake-up for you. Most people don’t negotiate their salary through a third party. They most often get paid what they’re worth. There are doctors, lawyers and teachers that make more than me. I accept this because for the most part their job is more important than mine. It doesn’t affect the size of my dick. I choose my job with the excellent benefits but relatively weak base pay because I like it and it provides a comfortable lifestyle.
Or is it that fact that they don’t have as much education and training as you do, therfore, by dint of your massive eductional/skill background you somehow deserve a higher wage, (nonewithstanding your inability to negotiate a better salary giving your massive educational/skill background)?
I am working class you dolt. These strikers often are people that can’t get anything more complex than taking a token from a worker on his way to go to work. (Why do I know you just won’t get that?)
And if he’s on strike to keep free health care offered to new hires before he retires at 55 based on the contract he signed before this fiasco, he’s not really complaing and fighting for his rights. He’s fighting for the union bosses’ stake in collecting future union dues.
1%??? Care to address that? Has NYC shut down over 1%? What exactly are the fine men and women retiring at age 55 giving up in this round of negotiations?
How about I tell you the ins and outs of driving OTR? Where you hope to make that much money and do the same thing on holidays, weekends, and weeks at a time? With no overtime or holiday pay. And almost always without a set route? One week you’re in San Diego, the next in Brooklyn. And you better damn well know the streets because you’ll have some bus driver forcing you into the right lane and glaring at you for not knowing his route.
8 - 10 hours driving a bus? Sounds better than hauling a 53 foot trailer through your city dealing with people like you.
This isn’t “negotiation.” This is blackmail plain and simple. And walking off the job while screwing over millions of people because you think your raise isn’t big enough is indeed greedy.
On the basis that they’re walking away from decent wage increases – at a time when many other workers, let alone unskilled workers, will not see any wage increases at all.
Do you really think many New Yorkers have any sympathy at all for them right now? Particularly when most of them don’t earn as much and don’t have benefits that nice?
I feel the people of NYC and the surrounding suburbs have the right to avoid $30 four hour commutes. I feel that my husband (who also works for the TA yet unlike his unskilled co-workers pays for his own fucking health care and retirement) has the right to avoid having to walk 4 miles a day to get to work. I feel that thousands of children should have the right to get to school.
And on what planet are TWU workers NOT earning a decent wage?
According to the authority, the average subway or bus operator earns nearly $63,000 per year. The average subway conductor earns about $54,000. The average station agent earns about $51,000. A subway cleaner earns about $40,000.
The average FAMILY wage in America is roughly 50k.
Screw the $63,000 a year bus driver and his stupid fucking demands.
Um, fuckstick, I work for a wage. Meaning I get paid for the hours I work. I’m non-union so I don’t have the option of sitting on my fat, lazy ass holding hostage an entire work force in the largest city in the country demanding an 8% raise and retirement at age 50.
I also don’t have the option of
working under union rules that negotiated a contract
-working under that contract, then sitting my ass down to watch Dr Phil demanding the contract be re-negotiated to include new employees
saying that the contract years ago should apply to people hired tomorrow
saying that the entity that my “representatives” are dealing with can’t change a single thing about that contract signed years ago, but “we” can demand new provisions or we’ll shut down the largest US city.
Concessions? The union isn’t even giving a reach around.
Go to fucking work like the rest of us. Union doesn’t mean you get a vacation. Go to fucking work.
I wasn’t making an analogy, I was trying to say that these “unskilled”, “overpaid” workers should be easy to replace. If it were that easy, and paid that high of a wage, everbody’d be doing it, or at least rying to.
There must be something to these jobs, skill, working conditions etc. that keeps every uneducated, lazy schlub from choosing/being able to do them. I don’t know what it is, but something is keeping the supply of transit workers low or their wouldn’t be a TWU in the first place.
If they really are that worthless, by all means the MTA should be able to break the union. Fire the whole lot of them, shit, WTF do I care. But TWU workers have something of value, and they should be allowed maximum profit from their labor.
The city is honoring the contract. The “NEW” contract proposed mentions new hires to pay 1% of health care. That seems to be a major problem for the thugs.
There is no mention of existing member’s paying that. And if they did? I don’t see 1% of health care deductions getting anyone in a bind.
If you think the current contract is unfair, you have a lot of learning to do about the real world.
It’s boggling the mind how insular you are in this union bullshit.
I can see a bit of good in being a union shop. I know a few guys that are. Unions are good if they’re run right by those in power. In other words, if the local is run by people that run the union in the best interest of the worker’s.
Unfortunately, while many of you deride us North Dakotan’s for being dullards, we’re also home to unions that generally don’t strike. And when Simplot worker’s do, it’s usually just a half dozen people on their day off standing with prefab signs that nobody notices while driving to work.
Again, we have a work ethic. Even if the wage is low, there’s a job to do. You won’t understand if you don’t spen a little time here. There is no entitlement mentality among most here. You go to work.
Then perhaps you should be the one looking for a new job. Maybe you should learn to drive public transprtation.
I could be wrong, but aren’t these workers losing 2 days pay for every day that they’re on strike? And didn’t their contract expire on the 15th? Don’t make this situation sound like they’re getting paid, AND sitting on their asses watching Dr. Phil. They’re not. They’re giving up their wages to see what’s more valuable, their contribution to the city, or their personal bank account.
They don’t have to go to work until they decide that they can’t afford to be on strike anymore, or the city decides that it can’t live without them, or the city fires the lot of them and hires somebody else.
At 63K to drive a bus I’d said you can take the quote marks away because they are both unskilled and overpaid.
And I have no doubt that if the city wanted to play hardball they probably could easily replace many of the strikers.
Every lazy schlub isn’t able to do these jobs because there are only about 33,000 of them. I’m sure if the TA opened up the applicant pool at the TWU they’d get thousands and thousands of applicants to chose from.
Do they have something of value? As much as anyone who works for a living has value.
Are they being allowed maximum profit? At 63K a year to drive a bus hell yeah.
What they shouldn’t be allowed to do is blackmail an entire city and screw over millions of people many of whom make much less than they do.
That’s what they’re attempting to do. That’s why I have no sympathy for them.
I’m a very liberal person but I still see no merit in defending the TWU’s actions here.
Then that is what the city should do. If they can’t, or won’t, then the workers should have the right to use that to their advantage.
The people in New York that they are holding hostage made a choice to live somewhere that they would be dependant on public transportation, I don’t think these workers should have to accept less just for the good of the city, any more than I think that a private corporation should have to sell a product at less than market value out of the kindness of their hearts.
I already addressed this. We’ve shown that the TWU worker’s are making better coin than many better educated and trainable people. And the benefits rival those of any Senator, Representative or Mayor. Free fucking health care? Right there they lose the “common man” argument.
Shit, if new hires can drive a bus with the benefits that are proposed in this “negotiation”, I may seriously (no, I really mean seriously) think about moving there if I can win the lottery, er, get an offer for employment.
I see the TWU asking for concessions, while demonizing the MTA for asking for concessions.
I’d ask for clarification, but being a union backer the blinders are on and isn’t an option.
Now then, if the worker’s are qualified for Wally World or flipping burgers (condescend much?), is their work any less important? Many of them drive themselves to work. The one’s that don’t depend on the bus or subway. The fact that some of them don’t need a bus driver or subway conductor get them to work should tell ou that the TWU isn’t instrumental to the overall economy.
It’s a pain in the ass that they want to protest a new contract by demanding the one they signed carry over all benefits to the new one that extends all those benefits to people that are now coming into the union.
They want that concession. They refuse to offer any concessions themselves.
Don’t fucking talk about concessions. The union wants them while refusing any.
Now go to fucking work.
How are they going for a better deal? The sticking points, as I understand it, are for the union to 1) pay a portion towards their health insurance; 2) increase in the retirement age to 62; 3) differences on the amount of a pay raise. Sounds to me that the union is trying to hold onto it’s sweet deal.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The union isn’t “arbitrarily” cherry picking items from the previous contract. Both management and the union agree to negotiate on a set of items in the new contract. It so happens that it’s often the case that elements of the old contract form the basis for starting the process in negotiating a new contract. Unless both parties agree to start from stratch.
I take you are a resident of New York state, no? Different states have different laws, do they not? Would you be in favor of the transit workers working under a system similar to civil service? If not, why not? It seems to work well for the Federal Government, no?
So what’s the beef? You negotiated a fair wage/benefit package for yourself that you like - good for you. What’s wrong with a group of people doing the same thing? Is it the third-party intermediary that’s the problem?
And you know this - how?
So you object to a union bargaining from a postion of strength (I.e. past practices)? Rather they should start from stratch, no matter what? It would be a really piss-poor union to start negotiations from a position of weakness rather than a position of strength.
But I suppose that every job you had you negotiated from a position of weakness, right? Just took whatever was first offered you, right? Didn’t quit a job for another one that paid better, right?
duffer - honestly, I don’t know why you are so angry. You yourself said that you have a job that you like. Sure, the pay is not so hot, but it has great benefits. What’s the problem? Are you angry because others are making more money than you, even though you feel your work is more demanding? Why?
Honestly, it sounds as if your a bit jealous (or bitter). Which, isn’t a bad thing per se. I’m often jealous (and bitter) of people who make far more than I do for working a lot less. But I don’t necessarily begrudge a person’s ability to be able to negotiate a better salary/benefits package than myself. It’s part of our system.
You don’t really know me (and I, you). As I mentioned in previous threads, I’m don’t know all the little details regarding the TWU strike. There’s some sort of history that I’m not privy to regarding the relationship between the TWU and MTA that would make the TWU so reluctant to want to go to arbitration with the MTA. I can understand the anger directed against the TWU (forcing many to find alternate means to get into NYC). But why the paucity of outrage against the MTA? Where’s the governor (or mayor) in all of this?
If people would sac up and go to work, the union wouldn’t be able to shut the city down.
Picket line? Wouldn’t hold me me back from earning a living. If NYC can’t find 70,000 people willing to earn even $50k with a retirement age of 65 and a couple hundred dollars for health care it becomes a deeper problem. Maybe a thought-process I hope to never understand.
I thought New Yorker’s were tougher than that. Go to work. And if you have to face physical harm going to work, says even more about unions than anything we can post.
No they shouldn’t. It’s blackmail. And under the Taylor law, it’s also illegal. Should workers have the right to break the law when they don’t get everything they ask for?
What other laws do you think they should get to break?
And the transit workers chose to accept a job that prohibits striking under the Taylor law.
They aren’t in the private sector. They aren’t selling a product. They’re on the public payroll doing the public’s bidding. And getting very well compensated in the process. If they want to hold the public hostage the public should have the right to treat them just like they would treat any other hostage taking thugs.
It’s part of the union system. And why unions exist today (as opposed to why they existed 100 years ago).
What I begrudge is when you have millions of people arbitrarily affected. I hate saying “It’s unfair!”, but in this case it’s something I can feel comfortable saying. I don’t even live there, but sweet Christ I can see some people (well, many) that are really going to cause trouble with the strikers.
Even if the strike is justified in some twisted way, there are literally millions that are affected.
Of those there are hundreds of thousands that depend on getting to work by way of public transportation.
Of those there are thousands that will be severely affected by not getting to work. For even one day. Some will lose their jobs.
Let’s say 300 lost their jobs. Worst case. That’s 300 really, really pissed of New Yorker’s.
Let’s say those are the 300 that are mad enough to “do” something about it.
Wait a month or two. You’ll probably see the unplanned consequences on the news.
And for what? Demanding new hire’s avoid paying 1% for health care?
My understanding is that the strike isn’t just about a salary increase. But to also maintain the same benefits package they’ve enjoyed in the past for all workers.
Again, part of the reason for the strike was for workers to maintain the current system with respect to health insurance and retirement. They did not want to see a two-tier system implemented.
So they should be willing to give up certain things that their union has bargained and garnered for them previously just because others don’t earn as much or have as nice benefits?
So why are the transit workers unionized in the first place? And why doesn’t the MTA fire the workers and replace them with replacements if they aren’t allowed to strike?
