Nontheism in BSA

Great Debates
1

I’ll try to keep this OP short, and respond to any questions that arise.

My wife and I are nontheistic humanists. We have attended UU churches. Our 3 children, ages 11-15, seem to share our philosophical beliefs.

My middle child, a 13 year old 7th grader, is active in the Boy Scouts of America. The BSA expressly requires that scouts and leaders believe in “God”, though they do not require any specific definition of that term.

As you might imagine, religion plays minimal if any role in most scouting activities. However, when a scout advances in rank, he is interviewed by a BOR (Board Of Review). One thing that is asked, is whether the scout has been living up to scouting principles.

My son recently advanced to Star. The next rank is Life, and after that, Eagle. My son wants to become an Eagle Scout. However, we anticipate that it is likely that at one of his future BORs, he will be questioned as to his religious beliefs.

I was hoping you would provide me your thoughts on how we might approach this potential situation.

We could do a number of things. These are but a few.
-obviously, if we disagree with BSA principles, we could have our son stop associating with them.
-we could instruct our son that in this one instance, it would be okay to lie and say he believes in God.
-we could do nothing, and simply deal with this when and if it happens.
-we could coach our son to say, Yes, he believes in God," understing that to him, God is synonymous with nature or somesuch.
-we could name one of our tropical fish “God,” so my son could truthfully say that he has a personal relationship with God. (Could get tricky if he has to flush God down the toilet!)
-we could casually attend a liberal Protestant church in the community, so when asked, he could simply say, “We attend X church.”

I would appreciate any comments you have on this situation, or recommendations for how we might prepare for this possible situation.

(I posted this in GD rather than IMHO, because I hoped to elicit a thoughtful discussion rather than brief expressions of preferences.)

This and other socuting issues are discussed many places on the web, including www.bsa-discrimination.org

2

“Please don’t take this as rude, but my beliefs concerning religion are very personal to me and I’m not comfortable discussing them.”

3

I define God as Beauty, Love, Serendipity, Hope, Laughter, Luck, Good Acts, Selflessness…

So, I do believe in God.

But since you can come up with non-God definitions for the above - I’m darn near as close to a non-Theist as you can get, without actually getting my feet wet in that particular puddle.

I generally don’t go out and explain this to people. I just say I’m a non-Christian UU Deist (even that is a lot for most people to handle) - and if pressed, I believe in God.

So, I’ve chosen to deal with it personally in the manner describes as “coaching your son to say he believes in God, but define it as nature or somesuch.” Although I wouldn’t coach him. I’d help him come up with a definition of God that will work for him on a personal level and allow him to neither lie nor go against BSAs (misguided) principles. That may be “God as nature,” it may be “God as self” it may be “God as a little box in which I put my hopes and thanks.”

4

Just so you know what you’re hearing, this is coming from a staunch atheist.

Is he going to want to associate with these people if he has to lie to them for acceptance? What kind of a lesson is this? That people who demand things like this should be accomodated?

Sounds right.

This is quasi-dishonest, and I think you know it. If he really believed this, you wouldn’t have to coach him.

Might not work, but it makes me want to buy a fish and name it god. :smiley:

Also dishonest - and why would you go to a church just so you could tell the Boy Scouts you did? This seems like just a more roundabout version of the first one I quoted.

Bottom line: I’d say tell your son to be honest and say what he wants. They may accept him or they may not, but isn’t dignity important too? I think the way to go is for him to be himself. He is, you know, violating the Boy Scout code or whatever it is if he lies. :wink:

5

Thanks for the input. Gotta fly - will be back tomorrow.
Should add, tho, that this kid is extremely bright, and a hardcore evolutionist. He has firm opinions about certain things - among which are that science makes sense, and the supernatural does not.
Also, the God stuff is important on the national level of the organization - but not as much locally. The problem is that as a scout advances, the regional council plays an increasingly big role in reviewing the kids. So it isn’t the folks he associates with who will likely make this an issue.

6

**

If it bothers y’all that much then that might be the better choice.

**

Part of the Boy Scout Code is being trustworthy. Someone who lies is not trustworthy.

**

If you actually believed this to be true then I guess it wouldn’t be a lie. Of course playing name games is just another way of lying. I doubt you’d put up with it if your son used clever word games to be deceptive.

**

Another lie.

**

Yet another lie.

**

Do you really want to encourage your child to lie in order to maintain membership in a voluntary organization? Especially when being dishonest is against the core values of the organization. You’d be teaching him that it is ok to lie in order to take the easy way out.

**

I’d like it if they removed their bar against homosexuals and atheist. I wouldn’t encourage my child to lie to them though. I would essentially be telling them that Scouting is meaningless.

Marc

7

Twenty years ago, when I was in Scouts, nobody ever asked me if I believed in God. Scouts was about going on camping trips. There were occasional prayers, but I just kept quiet.

I would talk to the Scoutmaster and see what is expected. He may not mind. It seems just recently that some Scouts are making it some kind of “loyality oath” that everyone has to take.

I remember that part of the text in the Scout Oath under “Reverent” says “he respects the beliefs of others”

8

I have to say that I think this is a bad idea. If your son is mature enough to have firm ideas about what he believes and doesn’t believe, then I would imagine he’s mature enough to decide whether the disparity between his beliefs and the institution’s tenets is important enough to warrant this action. To put it bluntly, I think this decision is better left up to him. From reading your posts, I don’t think you would have done otherwise, but I wanted to mention it just in case.

From what I remember, all the boards of review are done within the troop until Eagle Scout; the Eagle process consists of a troop board of review followed by a council board of review. If you haven’t had any trouble with the troop to date, then I’d say the issue is at least a year or two away.

My take on it, as a nontheistic Eagle Scout myself, was that the question “have you been living up to Scouting’s principles?” allowed me to determine for myself what those principles were. I looked at it in much the same way I looked at the clause in the Scout Oath about keeping yourself “morally straight” - that it was purely a matter of me being able to look myself in the mirror. I don’t remember ever being questioned specifically about religion (or morals).

Another thing to keep in mind, that I think is often forgotten, is that the three council members who sit on the second board of review are pulled from local scout troops in the area. If the leaders of your son’s troop are respectful of individuals beliefs and don’t require blind conformity to a set standard, it’s possible, if not likely, that other leaders in the area will approach the subject the same way.

9

Agreed, I just can’t see the local council making a big deal out of this unless they have some Jerry Falwell type on the board who is trying to make this a sticking point. Most councils want to promote scouting and are espcially proud of scouts who achieve Eagle rank. They aren’t in it for the controversy. Don’t read the propaganda from BSA national, ask the locak folks who are involved in the process in your area. I think you will find this isin’t a big deal.

10

Since this is GD, I’ll make a debate out of it:

If there’s no God, what’s wrong with lying to get what you want? Will your son feel bad about having lied? If he is later caught in his lie, will there be any consequences? Teach him to weigh those consequences, multiplied by their risk of occurance, against the benefits of telling the lie.

Isn’t that the exact lesson a non-theist should be teaching his son?!

Your son is probably reciting the scout oath at every troup meeting. The oath includes a promise to do his “duty to God”. Lying to the board of review would just be status quo for him.

MHand – Eagle Scout and Theist

11

So the only reason not to lie is because god will punish you? A person can’t have a moral code that precludes lying unless it’s based on a duty to god?

12

This implies that morality is dependent upon the existence of God, something which is regarded as false by nearly everyone aside from a few conservative religious folks. There are plenty of sound arguments regarding the immorality of lying that do not depend on any god.

If God doesn’t exist, then it is impossible to fail to do one’s duty to God. So where exactly is the lie?

13

My son’s Eagle Scout Board of Review was last July 7th.

First off, by the time your son gets to the Eagle Scout Board of Review it’s a formality. For all intents and purposes, my completing the application process and getting all the signatures required he has “qualified”. We and our son were told “don’t be nervous, it’s just a formality, you’ve completed the application process already.”

Secondly, during that review (which lasted just over an hour)
He was asked to recite each of the items below:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Boy Scout Law
A Scout is:

**Trustworthy, **
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

Boy Scout Motto
Be Prepared!
Boy Scout Slogan
Do a Good Turn Daily!
The Outdoor Code
As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.

During the review intermixed with reciting the above he was asked various questions. For example:

He was asked if he lived the oath. He was not asked to “testify or bear witness” of his specific beliefs. You said you’ve attended UU chruches. If in your family (and his scout troop) that is “doing your duty to God”, then the truth is all you need. They did not ask “how he did his duty to God” (although it was quite clear from the letters of recommendations, one being from our ecclesiastical leader, that he is quite active in our faith).

They DID however, ask for specifics of how he served his country and community and family.

Part of the application process requires that your son have three to six letters of recommendation. While your son provides the name of the people who are his references, the Advancement committee is the one that contacts (in our case by phone and by letter) the references. Among the things the advancement committee asked the potential references to be specific about was to address if the applicant exemplifies the scout law and for the specific examples from the applicants life. You will note that I bolded Trustworthy. You as his parents will be among the people asked to write a letter of recommendation.

I suggest you simply have your son answer the questions truthfully. *On his Honor[i/]…

Sorta a hi-jack but some other questions they asked were?

Has the scout accomplished the tasks that are required in advancing ranks, completing the “Eagle project” and all the steps of the application process?

What sort of experience is he having in the Troop and within his Patrol? Did he enjoy the boys, the leaders, the activities?

What was his favorite scouting memory?

What was his favorite merit bagde?

What was his least favorite merit badge?

Which was the hardest merit badge?

Did you discover any potential career options in earning any of the career oriented badges?

Is he ready for advancement and the responsibilities that come with it?

Where does he plan to go from here?

Does he intend to continue in scouting?

How old are you?

With whom do you live?

What do you do to make your home a pleasant place to live?

What are your hobbies? What do you do in your spare time?

What do you consider to be your strongest attribute? Why?

What do you consider to be your greatest weakness? What are you doing to overcome this weakness?

Of the twelve (12) points in the Scout Law, which one (1) is the most important to you? Why?

What is “Honor”? What does it mean when you say “On My Honor”?

What does “A Scout is Reverent” mean to you?

What does it mean to be an Eagle Scout? What burdens and responsibilities come with being Eagle? Once an Eagle… An Eagle for life…Are you prepared for this?

What is an Eagle Scout’s duty to his country?

How do you think being an Eagle will affect your life?

Tell me about a Good Turn you’ve done recently.

What do you think you can pass on to the younger Scouts in the Troop? Have you ever thought of looking into becoming a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster (JASM) or as an adult an Assistant Scoutmaster (ASM)?

Tell us about your leadership positions in scouting? What did you learn about leadership in those roles?
Tell us about your Eagle project? What did you learn? Did you have any problems or was it smooth sailing all the way from idea through completion?

What problems did you encounter, and how did you overcome them?

How did you demonstrate Leadership during your project?

How can the Troop improve on it’s training of youth leaders?

What do you think the purpose of the merit badge program is?

How have you changed during your scouting experience?

What would you tell other scouts that want to earn the rank of Eagle?
Here is an excellent site that lists the requirements for the rank of Eagle (after you have already reached the rank of Life) http://www.eaglescout.org/

Please do not compromise your or your son’s “Honor” and personal integrity, over “duty to God”. His duty to God is whatever you have taught him. Even if it is only sporadic attendence at a UU church.

14

Sorry about the coding gaffs. :confused:

15

Eagle Scout chiming in here:

Just to reiterate what everyone else has said, the only correct answer is to tell the honest truth. There are no ifs, ands or buts about it, this is the very first part of the Scout Law, and it’s the whole point of the entire Scouting movement worldwide. No half-truths, no tricks. He absolutely has to tell the Eagle board the truth about his religious views. He can certainly abstain, as has been suggested, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Eagle Scouts should be comfortable discussing their religious views with others in a non-threatening environment. Open discussion and tolerance of other religious views has been a part of the Scouting movement since its founding (note that I refer to the “Scouting movement” rather than the BSA).

That being said, I don’t see any reason why they would give him flack for his views. They are essentially mine, and I explained them in detail to my BOR, and stand before you an Eagle Scout. There is nothing in the BSA program that requires a belief in any mystical sky-fairy that smites people with lightning bolts, nor do you have to attend any organized church of any sort. What the BOR is looking for is a scout that thinks about the big questions of life, and tries to live by the answers he’s arrived at. That’s it, and any Secular Humanist, Wiccan, Christian, Muslim, Jedi or god forbid Unitarian (I’m one of those) fits the bill.

If your particular BOR disagrees (I don’t think they will, though, and I’ve been a member of numerous Eagle boards) we can go from there. More than likely it’s an issue that can be cleared up through the executives of your local Council, I know they have been in mine.

Finally, I’d just like to point out that an Eagle Scout isn’t a person with a badge, it’s a person that upholds the principles of the Scouting movement, whether they’ve got a badge pinned to their chest or not. There’ve been some pretty scummy people (such as mass murderers) that have worn the Eagle badge, and most of the greatest men in history didn’t have one. I think everyone here would agree that they’d rather have the son that told the truth and held to his convictions than the one that misled the leaders to get a badge.

16

Thanks for all the input (well - ALMOST all of it! ;))

Perhaps this will never be an issue.

He COULD truthfully say something like, “I attended RE courses in my church where I learned about many different ways that people of different faiths relate to their god/gods. I look forward to growing more in that respect. Personally, I love the beauty that I find in nature, in our world, and in our universe. And when dealing with other people, I try to live by the golden rule and treat others as I would have them treat me.”

If worst comes to worst, and he draws some hardcase for his BOR, then maybe he will learn a lesson that may be as important as gaining the rank might have been.

Just to clear things up, my son does not perceive himself as having ANY relationsip with God. He considers God to be an unnecessary concept, irrelevant to any aspect of his life. When he was maybe 10 years old I can recall him getting into some pretty intense arguments with kids spouting creationist stuff, challenging the foundation of their beliefs and advocating the preferability of evolution and a scientific approach.

However, we have also taught him that he does not always need to broadcast his thought system. And he should be respectful of others when they exhibit beliefs that differ from his.

Personally, I feel it is really a shame that the scouts are such hardasses about sexuality and religion. The girl scouts have no such rules. And it is tough because BSA has so much going for it.

In my own mind, I could easily find myself justifying lying in this situation as the kind of excusable “white lie” - when asked a question that you probably shouldn’t have been asked. A la your wife asking “Do these pants make my butt look big?” Or your boss asking, "Do you mind staying late to finish this project?"

Thanks again, folks. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

17

I wouldn’t have allowed my child to join a club that bars gays and athiests in the first place, but that’s water under the bridge.

If you have to lie to be a member, it’s not much of a club.

If you have to plot the lie years in advance and scheme deception with your child, membership to the club is not having the desired effect.

Your son can accomplish all the things he accomplishes in this club without being a member and without lying.

18

Second the motion to talk to these people. Now. At the level that’s likely to be a sticking point (i.e., talk to your scoutmaster, and if you don’t think he’s got the answers to your questions, go over your scoutmaster’s head to get them).

There was a UU kid in my son’s scout troop. When we were at camp, the chaplain showed up one morning to discuss faith options within the Scouts. He had some surveys to hand out, and there wasn’t a checkbox for UU on it, so they wrote one in.

19

Another alternative is, if this seems as tho it would be an issue, he could simply decide not to pursue Eagle rank.

20

Dins,

You know well that the UUs and the BSA has had their disagreements on this. Whether your kid will get caught in the politics of the situation is a whole different question. If someone on the council is educated about the UU/BSA battles and wants to make a point, there might be trouble. Otherwise, my guess is they will let it slide if your son is willing to talk about his participation in the UU community and his respect for religion (he doesn’t have to mention the whole “except those creationist loonies, oh and the Scientologists” part). I have a buddy who is an atheist scoutmaster, who has helped several atheist kids reach Eagle rank, but he advises the kids to keep mum about their beliefs - and say that they are “deeply personal” - and this is Minnesota, not the Bible belt. Despite my distaste for the BSAs attitudes towards homosexuality and atheism, we buy our wreaths every year from him - his troops are inner city minority kids, and I just can’t not support his kids - and their atheist scoutmaster.

There is the good possibility that, being eleven, he will change his mind about the Scout thing in the next couple years. Scouts is still cool at eleven (so tells my co-worker, who has two boys - one about that age), but the boys start dropping shortly thereafter for sports, girls and video games. The combined pull of the other lures, plus your and his feelings on BSA policies, may be enough for him to be perfectly happy using his BSA time to play basketball instead.

Kalhoun, I have to disagree. You can’t accomplish what you can accomplish in the BSA without being a member of the BSA. Eagle Scout does carry weight on college applications - hell, it carries weight fifteen years after college, I’ve watched people drop their “Eagle Scout” status in job interviews to positive effect. There are few organizations other than the BSA willing to take fifteen twelve year olds camping together - in parts of the country, if you want the “boys camping” experience, its the BSA. Yeah, Dad could try to organize something independant of the BSA, but most parents will just wonder why the kid doesn’t just join Scouts. And when given the explaination, aren’t sending their kids with atheist loving/ homosexual approving Dad. Possibily the worst thing about the Scouts stance on atheism/homosexuality is that they really are a great organization for boys, with the exception of those two sticking points - which aren’t universally accepted within the organization - or even universally applied. I’d admire the convictions of parents who could tell their boy who loves to camp and hang out with his friends that he can’t do Boy Scouts when all his other friends do it - but it probably won’t be me.

Scout troops are really different. I know people who were perfectly comfortable in their Scout troop with “alternative” religious beliefs (or non-beliefs) and some for whom Boy Scout meetings seemed to be “Bible Study Lite,” from which they ran as fast as they could.