My husband and I were discussing the Boy Scouts (loaded topic of itself, and don’t really want to go there) and were talking about the intersection of atheism and the requirements in the scout pledge.
Not being a scout, I thought that the pledge had something vaguely to do with worshipping something so I thought atheists were out, unless they were willing to lie, which sort of defeats the whole purpose dontchaknow.
But my husband corrected me to say that it only says you have to be “reverent.” However he then immediately reflected that it wouldn’t matter, because being “reverent” is sufficient to disqualify atheists anyway.
Now, I may have given him a bad impression of atheists, as I’m just about the most irreverent person on the planet, but I don’t think he’s right, and I couldn’t really articulate why.
My random scramblings went something along the lines of atheists being fully able to admire the complexity of the universe and to strive to be respectful toward nature and fellow residents due to stirrings of good stewardship or appreciation for a good existence, but husband doesn’t think that counts as ‘reverent’ enough.
I personally think that ‘reverence’ is closely related to that “whoa” feeling people get at really breathtaking scenery or moments of great positive acts of humanity, and those don’t really require belief in anything greater than oneself.
Personally, I think it’s an ambiguous word. It may have been chosen on purpose for that reason, or the framers of the Boy Scout oath (and those 12 commandments or whatever they are) may have chosen it assuming that everyone would understand its religious underpinnings (as they thought).
The oath refers to “my duty to God”, and from other materials you can read on the scouting website I think it’s pretty clear that they mean it to be a religious reference, probably akin to devoutness, without being monklike.
Anyway, I tend to agree with you that reverence doesn’t have to be religious, but I also don’t think that’s what boy scout leaders had in mind then or now.
Roddy
This is unrelated to the Boy Scouts angle, but, of course it’s possible to be a reverent atheist. Just because one doesn’t believe in a God or gods does not automatically mean one suddenly starts despising and hating religion, theology, and all things mystical. More-over, the emotional awe that one used to find from being in the presence of an Awesome God can still (and imo should be) found in the presence of overwhelming natural mystery.
For a personal example, I live in Japan at the moment. I often go by shrines and temples on my bicycle. Often-times I will stop and pray for a moment. Now, do I believe in the innumerable kami, that every breath-taking thing in the universe has a type of soul? Not a whit. I pray largely because it strikes my fancy, but, most importantly, I pray because it centers me. In the shrine I can listen to the little voice, the voice in the wind so to speak. Passing through the pi-shaped archway, the sweet scent of the natural pine infuses the air, and I relax. My hand rubs the rough rope of the shrine bell, and I ask for my innermost desires, and for the strength to be a better person. Clap clap and silence, I give thanks and appreciation for being part of such a wonderful world. With a warm feeling of love and one-ness, I leave feeling like a better person.
It is the same feeling one can get in a majestic cathedral, a quiet chapel, a starry night, a shaded grove, a beautiful smile, or a delicious BMT, where the mutton is nice and lean. I am an atheist, and this to me is being reverent.
You can be “reverent” towards all sorts of things; religious or not, real or not, good, evil or indifferent. You can be reverent towards Gene Roddenberry if you’re a big enough Star Trek fan.
Eagle Scout here.
There’s a Scout Oath and a Scout Law that are recited as part of most Scout meetings. You’re talking about one of the points of the Scout Law, not a “pledge.” From the scouting webpage, “A Scout is Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”
That’s the meaning I remember from my time as a Scout. In my personal case, it primarily boiled down to respecting the beliefs of others. While I’m not an atheist, I’m not part of an organized religion and my beliefs don’t require any particular duties.
As Roderick mentions, there is a reference to “duty to god” in the Scout Oath. This implies a belief in a god and is cited by the BSA as the reason atheists cannot be Boy Scouts. The BSA also has a Declaration of Religious Principles that I don’t remember ever encountering as a Scout that requires recognition of God as ruling and leading power in the universe. By that standard, I doubt I would have been accepted to the organization.
My problem here is that I don’t know what “pray” means. I have never prayed; I don’t know how to. I can think; I can even meditate. I can engage in imaginary dialogue. (I sometimes go on long walks and have imaginary conversations with fictional characters; it’s a sometimes-useful tool in writing fiction.)
But I don’t know how to “pray.” Is it, in fact, nothing more than framing imaginary thoughts? (Or even speaking out loud?)
I try to be respectful toward religion and religious people. (Not always easy.) But I don’t know how to be “reverent.” There are institutions and ideals that I hold in the highest regard – representative democracy being near the very top of the list – but I don’t know how to “revere” anything.
I’m with the OP – there is wonder everywhere you look, and I revere it.
My understanding is that the BSA disagrees and holds the OP’s husband’s view. This is objectively, empirically wrong as a matter of fact and and of denotation. (See previous paragraph.)
That said, the Boy Scout Oath does explicitly mention god, as Hooker observes. Denial of membership to atheists on that basis is immoral, and so long as BSA does so, the provision of government benefits/subsidies on the organization is IMO unconstitutional. But unlike the stance regarding the word “reverent,” it’s at least not logically inconsistent.
If the BSA wanted to, they could say reverence in itself does not have to be toward God. And even that reverence towards God does not require a belief in God, only respect for the beliefs of others. That is, if they wanted to, which they don’t. Their attitude is idiotic. And it is not respectful of the beliefs of others.
Former scout here, Boy Scout, Webelos and Cub Scout in the 70s; also a former scout leader at those levels in the 90s. I am Christian, active and regular in my church and bible study. Just some background.
Maggie’s cite is clear, yet when I was in I don’t recall any Declaration of Religious Principle so maybe that’s new.
I can imagine some parts of the country (bible belt?) where religious activities are more overt in scouting, while other areas there won’t be any at all. It depends on where the scout is, to determine the local definition of Reverent. But in my involvement in NY, CT & CA there was never any overt religious activity. Sometimes meetings were in a church social hall, but that’s about it.
Other than the reference, the Oath, and the Reverent point in the Scout Law - and note that the other 11 Law points have no religious connection - Reverent in The World According to Me means respectful of others’ beliefs.
That’s just IMHO and it won’t stand up in a court, but it might just come down to don’t ask, don’t tell to borrow that phrase, and also it being easier to beg forgiveness after the fact than to seek permission before it.
In one of our leader training classes I was told that basically the BSA is like AA - “We don’t care what god or gods you pray to, we just want you to believe in something.” is pretty much how she put it. When it came time for the religious achievement section my son’s leader told me that as far as they were concerned that I was the religious leader of my family (akela) and I could act in the role of preacher/priest/whatever when it came to that section. It’s a difference, I suppose, between the letter of the law and the spirit. I am sure they could have just as easily kicked my family out.
I consider myself very reverent. I am respectful, and when I lead meetings I sometimes get put in a position to pray at the end. I do so and mine are pretty generic “yay love everyone and thanks for coming” and no one has said anything negative about it. I think I’m reverent. I am very respectful of others’ religious beliefs and it doesn’t hurt me to let them perform their religious rituals. I knew going into this what it was.
I have chosen to not make atheism my hill to die on with the Scouts. I knew what it was going in. I also think I do a good job leading and teaching reverence with my actions during prayers.
I am not defending the Scouts and do not want to sidetrack the discussion, but these have been my experiences as an atheist Scout leader. And no, I am not open about it at all with the other leaders. I like the camping and the kids. I take what I want from scouting and leave the rest.
CA is large, and northern is very different from southern, or even the eastern Sierra Nevada for that matter. To clarify, I was a scout leader in San Francisco and Los Gatos.
We end our meetings with everyone in a circle holding hands with arms crossed and say a quick “thanks for coming and we are so glad to have you and thank you for the wonderful weather” or some such.
In fact, the last thing someone usually says before we pray is “A Scout is Reverent” - that’s the signal to shut up and take your hat off.
I’ll toss my experience with prayer at Scout events in as well. In general, weekly troop meetings did not have any prayers. We had a troop chaplain had negligible duties to organize service for those who wanted one. District or wider events would have a “non-denominational” service on Sunday mornings, generally led by an adult leader. These “non-denominational” services were almost always explicitly Christian, which always bothered me.
At one point, my troop had an Eagle Scout Court of Honor where the award was presented to several Scouts who had earned it at around the same time. I was asked to do the opening and closing prayer because some of the Scouts and their families were not Christian and they knew I wasn’t either. They wanted a non-Christian prayer for the court. The prayer I gave didn’t invoke a deity, but expressed a thanks for the good deeds the Scouts had done in the opening prayer and a desire and expectation that they would continue to do good deeds in the future for the closing prayer. Afterward, I was thanked by the non-Christian families for the prayer and complimented by the pastor of the Christian Scout. It’s one of the things I’m still very proud to have done.
